Alison Brooks
Welcome to Office Talk, a fortnightly podcast featuring in-depth conversations with leading architects about their approach to business marketing and communications. I'm your host, Dave Sharp, an architectural marketing expert and director of Office Dave Sharp, a marketing practice offering specialized consultancy, marketing, and PR services tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Visit office dave sharp.com to learn more, or follow the practice on Instagram at officedavesharp. Joining me on the show today is Alison Brooks of Alison Brooks Architects, a London based practice known for generous and inclusive city building supported by uniquely sculptural design. In this episode, Alice and I discuss the challenges of participating in design competitions and how the need to produce so much more and satisfy stringent criteria compared to the early days can create barriers for emerging practices.
Dave Sharp:We discussed the important role competitions play in their business and how they think strategically about selecting the right competitions to invest time and resources in. We discussed the challenges she faced establishing her practice as a Canadian in the UK and how she was able to develop new client relationships without relying on an existing network. We looked at why Alison believes higher education projects offer some of the best opportunities for architects because the clients are highly motivated to be at the forefront of design, technology and sustainability. And finally, we discussed the value of developing an ability to write as a way to articulate your ideas as an architect and why Alison often finds herself spending more time writing than designing. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Alison Brooks of Alison Brooks Architects.
Dave Sharp:Alison, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Alison Brooks:It's a pleasure, Dave. Glad to be here.
Dave Sharp:Each episode we like to start with a little bit of a background on the history of the practice. Take us back to when you started things, what were you doing, when was this, where was this? Tell us a little bit about the early days of the practice.
Alison Brooks:I started the practice in 1996, and, this was after 7 years of working with Ron Arret as a partner in Ron Arret Associates and having lived in London for 7 years because I came I came to London in 1989 and, yes, kind of settled here and then decided at a certain point it was time to set up on my own and started out of the back bedroom of the of the house I was living in with my partner and our 9 month old baby.
Dave Sharp:Classic story for starting a practice in the spare bedroom with the 9 month old baby. That's how a lot of them start.
Alison Brooks:Yeah. It's, I don't know. I guess you reach a certain point in your kind of evolution as an architect, and and you just have to go for it. Like, either you yeah. You make a decision to to set up and forge your own path or, you know, join others and and make a team.
Alison Brooks:And that was what I felt I had to do at that point.
Dave Sharp:And so starting the practice and you were in London at this point, right? So Yes. But clearly the listeners will be able to tell that's not where your accent is from, that sort of so I'm interested in terms of like your experiences starting a practice in a country where you didn't grow up, didn't have those like necessarily those lifelong long connections because obviously those can be advantages to people when they're starting offices for the first time, they rely on those connections but that wasn't something that was as easily available to you.
Alison Brooks:Yes. That's that's exactly right. I, I'm Canadian. I was born in Ontario in a city called Welland, in Southern Ontario, and I studied at the University of Waterloo, which is near Toronto. It's kind of the the competitor to University of Toronto in terms of architecture schools.
Alison Brooks:And I, left Canada really a few months after I graduated. I I decided I I had to, you know, break out of the Canadian context. I'd I'd worked in a lot of practices in Canada during my architectural career in the sort of Waterloo's co op program. And I felt that, yes, I needed to see the world, find my way on my own, and, move to London because it's part of the Commonwealth. And with visas, you can do things like that.
Alison Brooks:So, yeah, I headed up to London.
Dave Sharp:Australia. You could have moved to Australia.
Alison Brooks:I wanted to be in the European context. I think as a Canadian, as a North American, you kind of look to Europe as being the the source of or at least at that time, the source of, you know, culture, history, the layering of of time in the built environment, which is so meaningful and, rich in in the stories and cultures that sort of underpin most of North American history. So and and also as a kind of architectural center. You know, London has for, you know, many years been a kind of hub with a global reach in terms of architectural practice and consultancies, Things like the AA, Architectural Association, we sort of followed and felt very close to as part of the Waterloo School of Architecture. So I kind of felt like I had a a base when I moved to London, which was the AA and was the kind of proximity to practices in the Netherlands and, sort of the the the kind of lexicon of globally respected practices, also in academia.
Alison Brooks:I think when I started my practice, I didn't really realize that how sort of alone I was. I I see that now looking back, but I didn't have a network, from school. I didn't study in the UK. I had no family here. I I really had no net no network.
Alison Brooks:And when I was working with Ron, our projects were were mainly in, the Middle East or Europe or in the kind of, hospitality sphere in London. So I I wasn't really a part of the architectural scene per se when I started. So I I look back now and think, that was really that was that was probably the hardest thing to do to be a a female non native to the UK, without a network and starting practice. So I think it's, 1 of the reasons why I really had to rely on the work I did and the competition process in the UK that has enabled me to sort of move into sectors or fields that might not have been available if I was relying on networks. And, yeah, it's been a quite a different path, I think, to to most most firms.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. It's definitely sort of starting in the wilderness a little bit, but I guess, like, it gives you a different perspective to bring to the the UK as well. Right? Like, you're not from the same background. There's, like, a completely different point of view.
Alison Brooks:Yeah. Exactly. I I think having the perspective of the outsider does give you, a certain strength or a a sort of power in a way to see things that people who are so familiar with this context don't see or to be interested in those things in the in the history, in the in the sort of communities that have existed for, you know, potentially centuries in the places in which we work, here in the UK. Those yes. We I tend to approach these things in a way uncontaminated by preconceptions or, yeah, sort of presumptions or any kind of chip on my shoulder.
Alison Brooks:I tend to sort of fall in love with the place, you know, all of the places in which we work and treat them as a kind of amazing source of of research, of, of sort of histories and stories of of people who have lived and worked and contributed to that place. And so it's a it's a kind of wonderful combination of of research and investigation, but also translation of translating those those stories into a a future potential, a future vision.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode of Office Talk is sponsored by Office Dave Sharp. Founded by architecture marketing specialist, Dave Sharp, Office Dave Sharp collaborates exclusively with local and international architectural practices to help them refine their marketing, distill their message, and elevate their brand. Our strategies and solutions provide expert perspective and clarity in the short term, while our process allows you the space to reflect on your goals for your practice in the long term. So consider this your chance to pause, to strike the perfect balance between your business objectives and the integrity of your brand. With a highly structured strategy and positioning process, ongoing guidance, and access to our network of talented and skilled creatives will help to position your practice in a way that's considered, distinctive, and timeless.
Dave Sharp:So to learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit officedavesharpe.com. You mentioned competition. So was that the key thing in those early days was just smashing those competitions, just really getting into them. Was that kind of the main way you were kind of spending your time?
Alison Brooks:Well, it was kind of a mix because the first projects, the first commissions I got were amazingly the result of the only 2 letters I wrote when I started my practice. They both resulted in commissions. And you have to realize that when I started in 96, it was the beginning of using computers at all. There was no Internet and it or it was just starting in in sort of general use. So the way that we could sort of or I could disseminate my practice, the fact that I started up was literally through snail mail, you know, letters and sending out maybe a brochure.
Alison Brooks:And I had 2 contacts who who were clients I'd met when I was working with Ron. We didn't have any projects with them, but I just sort of notified them that I'd I'd started my own practice. And they both resulted in a project. And the first 1 was for a hotel interior in Germany in the on the island of Helgeland, which is in the North Sea, this island in the middle of the North Sea, which is a a kind of spa destination. There are no cars there.
Alison Brooks:The the air is really pure, and there's no allergies, and it's a very healthy place. So I I got this commission to do this spa hotel, the Atoll Hotel in, Germany, and that was fantastic. It was sort of a phone call in response to my letter that I typed up and printed on my Mac classic. You know, those tiny little black and white computers with a tiny little printer. So that resulted in a call and a commission and was a sort of 3 year project that enabled me to buy some computers, hire some people.
Alison Brooks:And we worked out of my living room for sort of 2 and a half years. And that was and grew to sort of 4, 5, everybody German speaking. So I had a kind of a little German office in my living room in northwest London. And then finally, we decided, yeah, we had to move out, and I found a space in in Islington, and we moved there. And at that point, I then had a another phone call, which was a response to the second letter I'd written on the Mac classic, which was to a residential client who, who'd had who had a house in Hampstead, and there'd been a fire in the house, and she needed to kind of refurbish it.
Alison Brooks:And that turned into the VXO house, a sort of multiphase project that became a kind of campus of buildings. And that was a project that won an RIAB award and was really widely published, literally all over the world. And so that incredibly, that 1 house sort of delivering, you know, designing, building, completing, quite major residential project actually became a a really important stepping stone into into larger work. I really believe that if you if you can show a client, even a developer client, you know, this is a a house that we designed and executed and controlled and achieved a certain quality. It kind of proves that you you can deliver, you know, that you can sort of master the the whole process from from concept all the way through to, you know, somebody living in in your idea every day, all day, and, it's sort of standing up to that kind of scrutiny.
Alison Brooks:So while that project was going on, I did competitions kind of on the side because I knew the day was coming when these projects would finish and, you know, you're always looking for what is the next project that's going to step in to fill this kind of obsession we've been working on for the last 2 or 3 years. And it's very it's a I think it's a, a trap that a lot of architects get into is sort of devoting yourself to so much to the project that you're working on that you're not putting enough effort into winning the next project. So, and, you know, back in the day when there weren't websites and there weren't ways to disseminate your work or your even your you know, hope that that would generate some new inquiries. But you know, hope that that would generate some new inquiries. But that's a very difficult way to to kind of win new new work.
Dave Sharp:And that's still kind of the case in a way, isn't it? Right? I mean, still it's the finished project that ultimately or in a lot of cases is doing most of the heavy lifting in terms of, like, most architects are still waiting for that project to finish, to photograph, to publicize and that sort of thing.
Alison Brooks:Right? It's still the case, but I think now architects can do a lot of other things in the meantime that sort of fill fill that void between, you know, starting and finishing a project, which is, you know, lecturing, teaching, putting research projects out in, you know, on your website or, contributing to the discourse via LinkedIn or Instagram or just generating a following through your personality. You know, there's a lot of sort of personality promotion now in architecture, which is not a a thing at all, you know, 20 years ago.
Dave Sharp:In terms of personality sort of being articulated through that discourse type stuff, like speaking, being on juries, teaching, like that kind of side of the personality or more just kind of showing off on Instagram kind of personality?
Alison Brooks:Well, I think now now it's both. Like, and I I think it depends on the individual, but I think I always felt that well, especially after I started winning awards for projects and then being asked to be a jury, for example, in the RIVA Awards group, you you do feel like you need to give back. And, you know, if the if your profession and your institutions are recognizing your work and in a way giving you free publicity, which I totally depended on back in the early days. You you do want to or I wanted to give back and so I did always, accept invitations to go on juries and to speak and to give lectures. And also, I did feel it was important as a female architect to be out there and show other women that they could also set up their own practice and find their own path.
Dave Sharp:Kind of going back to couple of questions about that initial stage where you made a really good point about winning the project, being so busy working on it that you then don't, like, win the next project, like the importance of focusing on making sure that you've got the next project, which is we'll get to that in a second. But I'm also interested in like that story where you reached out via a letter, you won this, what sounds like a pretty sort of fantastic project that was obviously pretty big, a pretty substantial project by the sounds of it, because suddenly you're a team of 5 people. It's a pretty big leap in a sense. And I've seen practices that have won that larger than expected project for their small team, or or maybe they're a sole practitioner, they win some big hotel project in another country, they then start having 10 employees, but they really struggle to kind of have that growth be sustainable beyond that because when they come to get that next project or the project after as that first 1 kind of moves through the pipeline, it's hard to have the 2nd big hotel and 3rd big hotel be there ready to go behind it.
Dave Sharp:What have your experiences or thoughts been on like, kind of in relation to your question about making sure you've got the next project? Also though, being able to take these, like, big leaps in growth, but do it in a way that's still sort of sustainable and then can be maintained moving forward? Like, how do you think about that?
Alison Brooks:Yes. Well, I think I I experienced that situation of of not having the Oh, it happened. Project in place. It happened.
Dave Sharp:Oh, we didn't tell that part of the story.
Alison Brooks:Because, when the Atoll Hotel project finished, I had been doing competitions. You know? I could see the, you know, the kind of writing on the wall. You know? This project is is going to open in I think it was May 2020.
Alison Brooks:Sorry. 2000. This is a really long time ago. I could see that this project was coming to an end, and I I was really happy with the work we'd done. And and we did win awards for this is the Atoll Hotel I'm speaking about.
Alison Brooks:So I could I could see that this project was was finishing and we needed to bring another project into the office. And so I started doing competitions for housing projects. And so at the time, Europan was a was a big thing, and there was an Urban Splash competition, Britannia Basin up in Manchester. And this this was sort of at the time when not many architects were working in housing. And I really believed and still believe that housing is a duty of an architect to to focus on or contribute to to quality of life.
Alison Brooks:It's the social project of architecture to city building, sort of, beautiful, sustainable neighborhood building, you know, this stuff of everyday life and that everybody deserves a good place to live. And so I really felt that I needed to work in housing as a kind of ethical social project of the practice, and so I stood but it's very hard to break into housing if you have no track record. And so competitions, I felt, were the way to do that and also to generate a portfolio of housing so I could sort of demonstrate that I could do it. It was also part of my thesis project at at Waterloo, was sort of regeneration of a huge sort of abandoned housing project in Buffalo, New York. And so this sort of project of reconstruction and restoration and, sort of desegregation of social housing from the rest of the city, reintegration, these were all issues and ideas that I'd sort of carried with me from my, my studies, my architectural education.
Alison Brooks:And so breaking into that space was quite difficult. But I did do these competitions, and they gave me a portfolio and very I did win some projects from the yellow pages that sort of filled the void between sort of finishing the Atoll hotel and, a a sort of housing project that I was invited to do with another practice. And that's kind of a funny story because my name is Alison Brooks. Alison Brooks Architects, a and b, I'm right at the top of the list in terms of,
Dave Sharp:you
Alison Brooks:know, the alphabet. And back in those days, the yellow pages were kind of the Google of finding firms. And so I did win a commission. This is for the Salt House because my practice was based in Islington, and the client was looking for Islington based firms who had delivered housing, and I finished the VXO house. And then another project was, also a kind of refurbishment of a of a club.
Alison Brooks:I mean, these are these are sort of times when you're you'd take anything that comes into the office. And but the salt house became another project that was a sort of thesis. I I have treated every house project as a as a thesis project, as a as an essay where I try I experiment with certain ideas, certain try to find new ways of approaching domestic architecture or the experience of a site or the way a family would like to live and integrating that with a kind of, yeah, a sort of experimental approach to specific architectural tectonics or materials or spatial relationships. This ties into the principle that the house projects I was designing, I made sure that they were sort of forging a path forward in terms of, architectural expression and identity and just having a very strong concept that would sort of position my practice in a place which is, you know, we are very, very serious about design and ambitious, and we can deliver these concepts at the scale of a house, which is obviously much more manageable than doing, you know, a huge scheme. And we weren't big enough to to have really big buildings to to work on.
Alison Brooks:So, yes, III really have always taken the house projects commissions that I've had very seriously as, you know, this is a moment to to establish a a kind of position, a kind of theoretical or conceptual and, architectural position and and push push it forward?
Dave Sharp:I mean, it gets debated on the podcast a fair bit where it's very popular for guests to say that, you know, when I'm designing a project, I'm only thinking about that specific site and client and brief and blah, blah, blah. And there's no like higher business brand purpose behind my decision making and things like that. I'm thinking just specifically about the situation, and that all sounds like really good and really noble, and it's great to hear. But I think actually what you're saying makes a lot more sense, which is that I'm thinking about how each project is moving the studio forward and is kind of an essay in our thinking and a thesis into our thinking, and it's establishing a design identity and a bit of a really a design brand as well, I mean, in in a sense. I think that's like a very common sense approach, but it gets it gets sort of pushed back.
Dave Sharp:When I ask guests about it, They sort of bat it back at me like, no, no, no. We don't we don't think about any of that stuff when we're designing projects that I'm I I just sit there, you know, try to pull a fast 1 on me, but
Alison Brooks:I I think that's really interesting that you kind of you you're see you're seeing that. But I think I did approach each project as this as an opportunity to think about what can architecture be. I'm not trying to be arrogant by saying that. Like, I really was. I think 1 of the reasons I came to the UK was to find, find my own voice as an architect and to sort of escape the conventions, the sort of conventions of modernism or the, the the the dialectic at the time, which was sort of modernism versus postmodernism or postmodern neoclassicism, and you were either in 1 camp or the other camp.
Alison Brooks:And it I was educated as a sort of diehard modernist, but I always I felt that there was there was a kind of void. There was a kind of emptiness at the heart of modernism. And I think moving to Europe gave me the opportunity to work in a context where history and ornament and craft and detail were at least valued, if if not loved at the time in architectural circles. It was it was all kind of dismissed. But I think I felt that there must be a way to bring in that that detail and craft and layering and even ornament.
Alison Brooks:That's not crime. Iconography. It to bring more meaning into, the experience of place and the experience of that is outside those ideologies and those conventions. So, yes, I I did bring I did bring a lot of ambition to these projects and an agenda to to find a a language that was was new and was was sort of breaking those boundaries and maybe, yeah, break breaking down those kind of barriers and boundaries that are really constructs. They're ideological constructs that that, you know, really don't need to be adhered to.
Dave Sharp:The word agenda gets, like, I don't know, thrown under the bus a little bit like, oh, it's horrible when architects have agendas, but but it's like, no, no, no. It's an architect on a mission. They're driven, they're passionate, and they they they wanna do something with their work, and they're each building is a way of demonstrating it and showing and communicating that idea to people.
Alison Brooks:I think I I was, but, you know, staying pretty quiet about it because, you know, it's important to you know, you have to balance these things, you know, these these agendas with your client needs with the planning system here in the UK. But it it also meant that I was also very self critical, I suppose, of the work that I was doing. So, for example, after the VXO House, I which I took on board as an opportunity to kind of really amplify this kind of 19 sixties modernism, to be playful with it and expressive, you know, the v and the x and the o as bright red structural elements. Everything in the in that house was expressed as an autonomous thing, you know, sort of on you know, honesty. Everything was sort of true to its its, material and its form.
Alison Brooks:It's very playful. And I felt that after that project, I'd sort of exhausted that particular modernist language, and I needed to move on. And so with the next project, which I think was the fold house, I decided instead of expressing everything as an as an autonomous element, I would reduce everything to 1 material. And, the fold house was the concept was to make, a building out of 1 sheet of 3 mil thick brass. You know, how can you reduce architecture to its absolute essence and make 1 material do everything?
Alison Brooks:Be the structure, be the roof, be, a bench, be a column, be a a sun shading device. So and this became a the next sort of quest to find a sort of plasticity and a kind of purity to the use of material and the creation of space and to sort of dissolve architecture even more into, something that negotiates the between interior, exterior, invites the landscape in, is a kind of device for modulating light, time of day, seasons. I you know, my interest sort of shifted, and I use these these private houses as opportunities to kind of push those ideas. And, you know, very luckily, I had clients who who were willing to go on that journey with me. But I I took them there in a very measured way.
Alison Brooks:It was sort of, you know, we can design this, you know, option 1, which is the conventional thing and the easy thing, and that would be quick to push through. Or if you're up for it, we could do it this way, option 2, which is a little more ambitious. Or option 3, which is, you know, this is what would really be remarkable and transformational and exciting. And but, you know, I'm I'm open and sort of enable the client to feel like they they're not being pushed down some route that would be an uncomfortable.
Dave Sharp:But over time, as you're sort of consistently putting ideas rich conceptual projects out into the world, and then, you know, attracting new clients with those projects, surely their expectations must shift over time to maybe some degree, right, where they're a little bit more pre primed to choose that third option than at the beginning of the practice where, you know, they're coming in because they've got AB architects in the yellow pages and then they're coming in the door, these poor people and you're going 1 3 mil sheet becomes the building and they're going what have I done? I'm going okay, cottage, who is this person? But, but surely over time that they start to come in and they go, we saw the 3 mil sheet. We loved it. What's next?
Alison Brooks:Yes. That that did happen, and that did happen really as a result of well, all the projects I'd done. The the Atoll Hotel, which did which was quite ambitious, you know, everything in that project was based on a cylinder, a sphere, or a circle because I was trying to create an atmosphere of being underwater and being sort of in the sea. And so it it was quite unusual and remarkable and was published quite a lot. And, and then the VXO house and then the, I guess, Salt House, like various houses.
Alison Brooks:And this and the fact that they were published, I think, there were started to be an expectation that I would do something special, you know, that I that my work, if I was going to be part of a master plan project or, you know, bid for something that I would come with something remarkable and it would be yes. That was the sort of expectation. And and I don't mean remarkable for the sake of, you know, shape making or any of that. It it was each project really was inspired by context, you know, in that I'm being a good architect sense, you know, really paying attention to the the kind of vernacular local vernacular, the material, context, the the kind of urban traditions of the places that I was working, and then sort of delving into iconography and history to sort of bring some of those meaningful representations of culture into the project. And this, you know, again, at the time sort of 20 years ago, that was or 15 years ago even, that was not really a thing.
Alison Brooks:Most architects were not doing tons of research into their the local culture and context. They were not referring to things like polar bear fur or, you know, leaded spires. I was sort of looking in the places that a lot of other architects weren't looking for their response to a place or to a project. And so I think this, you know, that approach, that sort of very open minded research based approach was and a kind of love of history, appreciation of history, and memory was unusual, and it it's sort of, has been AAA kind of conceptual underpinning to my practice and my work.
Dave Sharp:I guess it's interesting to see how the ease with with which you can break into a new sector through competitions has definitely changed over time, I imagine, right? Like we we we look Yes.
Alison Brooks:It's much harder.
Dave Sharp:It's much harder. So I'd just be interested in your thoughts on that generally, like I guess how you sort of see things changing. Not specifically looking back at like when you started the practice, but even just your kind of general sort of view on now and how you sort of see the system working or not working in terms of it being difficult for architects to start working in a new sector? They've got this chicken and egg problem where they don't have all of this existing work yet they can't really even get an opportunity or a foot in the door.
Alison Brooks:Yes. I think it is really tough now. It's become harder because I think clients have become more risk averse. And so now the prequalification process means you have to demonstrate turnover. You have to demonstrate 3 projects built in the last 5 years or 10 years of a of a similar scale and complexity.
Alison Brooks:And, you know, there are very few firms who have that kind of output. And so it tends to limit the the pool, and so you get the same firms sort of winning the competitions. As a counterpoint to that, which is positive, is the requirement now, especially in public procurement, for bids to include diverse teams. And this this works in particularly in, housing projects where there are enough buildings and enough scale to actually bring in multiple voices and create sort of collaborations that bring diversity and enrich a neighborhood and a sort of residential master plan. But now in the UK, there's also, often a request or a requirement to bring on board practices who represent minorities, visible minorities, and are even local.
Alison Brooks:Their practice is even based in the region and the borough where the where the competition is being staged. And so, you know, those are the opportunities that I think are helping younger practices in a way that I never had. Like, I never was invited onto a team because there was a requirement for diversity, you know, to have a woman led practice or a visible minority. That is happening today, which is definitely good. And in a way, I had 1 major opportunity that was a result of a collaboration, which was the Accordia project in in Cambridge where I was invited by Field and Clegg Bradley to join a master plan, a a housing master plan.
Alison Brooks:And it and that was on the back of the houses that I'd, designed, delivered, and had been published, and also a couple of competitions or, you know, schemes that were were published in the architectural press. So, you know, it wasn't a client. It was another architect who saw the value that I would bring to the mix in terms of the master plan and gave me, I think, 10% of the the you know, split it according to the 3 practice sizes, and that became Accordia. I designed 40 units across 3 buildings, and that won the Sterling prize. And so that was a that was a huge boost.
Alison Brooks:It it enabled me as a practice to learn from the bigger, more established practices that I was teaming with. Believe it or not, this was when, Adobe first came out. Like Oh, yeah? Yeah. And I remember, you know, the whole office kind of standing around a computer sort of saying, okay, you know, this is how we lay out documents in Acrobat, and it I think it was an all nighter and trying to get things to save and print and using up all the memory on the on the on the compute on the server, which was a single tower.
Alison Brooks:You know, these were early days in the in the technologies that we work with now without even thinking about it. That's a bit of a diversion, but it was a great, opportunity to for knowledge transfer and for, you know, to bring a small practice into a context and a development where I would never have been able to get that commission on my own. So I'm I've been, you know, forever grateful for to Field and Clyde Bradley for that experience. And that has, you know, that served me well as a portfolio project over the years. And also I had clients who lived in the houses that we built there who have been happy to, you know, allow me to show other clients or and, use it as a as a precedent and example.
Dave Sharp:It seems like no matter where you look, whether it's in London or Sydney or wherever, this new kind of model of procurement with these collaborations between big practices and small practices, it just feels like it's becoming the way of the times, I guess. It's like how everything's happening now. It's like the main way that I hear small practices getting into public work or larger scale multi residential and, yeah, it just seems to be the pathway now.
Alison Brooks:Yes. I I think it it is and it's, I'm not sure if it's like that in North America, but definitely in Europe, definitely in the UK. And I think it's a a good thing because the criteria now that you need to fulfill to sort of make it through the RFQ stage. It are is so onerous that we need to make these paths more accessible to the the profession, you know, the the emerging voices in the profession and to diversify our profession because it's it's not diverse. It's it's just not.
Dave Sharp:Do you find that your practice at sort of 25, 30 people is still kind of considered the small, like, the little spoon in the relationship of these projects? Or are you kind of getting to that point where you're actually starting to maybe see yourself more as the big guy that goes and finds the little 5 person practice to work with because of some borough or
Alison Brooks:I'm really happy about the new model that asks for more diverse teams that bring on board younger practices to sort of share in the in the projects and the and the work. It's also difficult though because the the amount of work that we have to do even at the RFQ stage, it it involves really designing a scheme and, bringing in unbelievable amounts of sort of narrative and policy references and how our practice works, all of our the ways in which we're helping employment strategies.
Dave Sharp:And there's a lot of criteria in the
Alison Brooks:youth you know, architects are being asked to solve a lot of problems that are way beyond architecture in the the kind of, you know, bidding context that exists in the UK today. And as I understand it, that's really because a lot of local authorities and local governments, they just don't have the the capacity and the funding to sort of properly have departments that are, you know, not only sorting out development of sites, but also the social issues and support systems and education and employment and health and welfare to and they're kind of shifting that load on to the architect teams that are developing the site. So we're sort of being we're giving away business plans and, yeah, diversity, opportunities, you name it.
Dave Sharp:It can be quite an onerous well, obviously quite an onerous process. And what what it sounds like there is a bit of a risk as well, or like, it was almost a risky investment to put all of that work into some of these projects. This is before you've actually won the project, isn't it? You've put together your team. Yeah.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. Yeah. You've put together your team, and you're saying, we're gonna try to win this, but we have to do this mountain of documentation of unbelievable.
Alison Brooks:It is unbelievable. And and we also have to commit to supporting local the local economy by, you know, offering apprenticeships and training and teaching in the schools and buying all our supplies from the local authority. Like, it it's the investment, really, really a tough scenario.
Dave Sharp:It's, like, obviously a well intended process as you were saying, but, yeah, it's it's amazing how much, I guess, like, simpler things were, where, you know, an architect would win a competition by producing a couple of drawings and being like, there's my there's my scheme for this, you know, here's our concept and
Alison Brooks:Yes. And on top of that also, we have to demonstrate that our project will be targeting net 0 and, even provide life cycle carbon analysis at the competition stage before you've even got the commission. So, yeah, it's yeah. Anyway, I don't really want to dwell on these kind of negative things, but I I do think or, you know, negative. The negative in terms of practice is being able to sustain the pursuits of work.
Alison Brooks:You know, pursuing new commissions is so onerous. It takes so much effort that it's difficult, and I think also very difficult for small practices to compete at that level. So but but I think overall, the shift is needed. It's a good change that the, you know, commissioning clients are seeing that they need to be more inclusive. They need to create a procurement process that enables more diversity in the way our built environment is delivered.
Alison Brooks:Now architecture needs to represent the voices and cultures of of the constituencies they serve. And so we we welcome that.
Dave Sharp:It does make it harder for for new practices to, you know, bring fresh ideas into sectors and things like that with those barriers to entry though, which, you know, is tricky. But I guess on the flip side of that side of things, there's the approach, the more individual relationship based approach to business development as a practice. You know, I'm thinking about the beautiful letters of the old Mac of the printer, you know, and how effective that was in 1996 to 1999, probably. Like, momentarily that was really great. But I guess, like, that principle of, like, the importance of relationships is still massive, you know.
Dave Sharp:Like, I'm I'm guessing that that's still probably a really, really vital and important source of I don't know whether it's, like, new business necessarily, but it's repeat business surely. And kind of these long term relationships that you've got with clients. Would you mind speaking just to, I guess, thoughts on the personal relationship aspect rather than the competing, filling out the frameworks kind of pathway?
Alison Brooks:That's an interesting question, because I think it's something I've not really been able to develop as successfully maybe as some of my English counterparts, partly also because I'm female, partly because I'm Canadian. And I've I've probably been too timid in terms of following up or, you know, inviting clients for
Dave Sharp:a drink or Yeah. Going on getting our visas.
Alison Brooks:It's always, you know, most of my clients, you know, the nondomestic ones have been male led organizations, and it's just not something that you feel super comfortable doing or at least I didn't. And and so I probably should have put more effort into that side of things. I I mean, I have had repeat work from our developer clients, but they still are competitions. Like, we still we still have to do a design competition to win that next job, even though, you know, we're designing a project with them that they're super happy with and everything's going well. But that doesn't mean we don't have to compete for the next stage.
Alison Brooks:So, yeah, it's very, very rare to just be offered, you know, here's a a project.
Dave Sharp:Project on a plate. Yeah.
Alison Brooks:The the because I think this culture of, well, we know we can get architects to do a scheme. So let's see what's out there. You know, we'd like to go with ABA or Alison Brooks Architects, but let's see what's out there, and let's see what their fees are. So this this kind of, that's always in the background, at least in residential development or mixed use development. On the on the other side, on this sort of cultural side or education, We have really lovely relationships with the clients.
Alison Brooks:For example, Exeter College in Oxford, a project that we won via competition, in 2011, you know, they there's such long lasting projects that took nearly 10 years to finish that you and it's you know, a lot of these institutions, they only build 1 building. It's not like they're going to build, you know, many, many, at least Oxford Colleges. You know, each project they build is kind of a 1 off for the next 100 years, maybe. So you don't when it comes to working with Oxford and Cambridge Colleges, they're they're sort of 1 project at a time, and that's probably it for the next generation. Whereas now we are, actually, we've just won a new project in Toronto for, a university.
Alison Brooks:It's and, you know, that is the kind of client where we could potentially have you know, they have huge pipelines of projects coming forward. We've also been shortlisted for projects in Princeton, and we have a nice relationship with them. And, you know, that is looks like it's leading to another opportunity and the, you know, the much larger institutions who have, you know, many, many projects that they are considering and the funding to be able to do that, those are ones that we're really focusing on at the moment because that that time frame is there. That sort of, those opportunities are not just a 1 off.
Dave Sharp:So it makes sense to invest to win that initial project because there's that chance that there'll be more projects that could potentially come from that as part of a bigger master plan.
Alison Brooks:Yeah. Exactly. And and I think universities do look, you know, they are also competing with each other. They are competing to have the next best, you know, research library or
Dave Sharp:State of the art. Institute
Alison Brooks:or collegiate, building and and attracting the talent and the researchers. And so they really care about the quality of their estate and they care about its longevity. And they're also normally pioneering in terms of new technologies and sustainability and, you know, I think are probably the the best possible client in terms of delivering projects that may be net 0 or may be regenerative. Because if anybody's gonna deliver those kinds of buildings, it's universities who are, you know, finding the solutions to the world's problems and resolving them with, you know, really good people who have a long term interest in in that sustainable future. You know, they're the ones who can deliver that.
Dave Sharp:I got this question from a listener recently and it's I think to do with competitions and as a business, as a practice, how do you decide how much time and staff and resources to invest in this process of attempting to win work through competition. How do you know what's too much or too little? I guess, where do you draw that line? How do you make sure that it's sustainable?
Alison Brooks:Well, I think it has to be you know, we are always on the lookout for a competition that we think, you know, this is something where we have a serious chance. We have some kind of connection with the place, some kind of interest in it, some kind of history with the place or or the people who live there with the language. And we limit. We definitely limit what we like, you just can't do.
Dave Sharp:You don't just throw darts wide folded and just sort of
Alison Brooks:see. No. No. We we are very targeted in our approach to what what competitions we go after. And, you know, it has to be some, you know, a project.
Alison Brooks:Sometimes it is for a project, a sector that we have no experience in. For example, the folks in Performing Arts Center, that was a 2 stage competition. It was at a point where the only work we had was residential. And I just said, we have to broaden our our spectrum. Let's go for performing arts buildings.
Alison Brooks:And, you know, did the, folks in performing arts center, and that was very successful, but it's a very small field and there are some experts in theaters and performing arts in the UK who are very difficult to compete against. And, at a certain point, I just thought, okay, that's that's too limiting. We need to break into education. And so we competed and won the University of Northampton master plan, which was working with an existing campus up in in Northampton. And and that was great, and that was a foothold into education, and that gave us a portfolio piece to then compete for projects like Exeter College, which was, I was invited onto the shortlist of 25, and that was like the college's own shortlist.
Alison Brooks:They they made their own shortlist, and that was a recommendation by 1 of the fellows in the college who'd seen the salt house and thought it was a really amazing house. And so that got us onto the long list of 25 and then our portfolio, with the University of Northampton, with folks and with because it was a residential and teaching college, accordia. All of those projects went into a a sort of book we made to get into the shortlist, and then we won the design competition. So everything kind of has to come together, and you have to really believe that this is this is a competition that we not only want to win, but we really can win. And we believe we're going to win it, and we're going to do everything to win that competition.
Dave Sharp:I like the point you made about finding that connection to the project or the place or something. It's like, you need that in, don't you? Or that thing to start building a bit of a narrative from about why we are, you know, why we can relate, like, what is the common ground. I imagined trying to find that connection to the performing arts project, like, you doing piano lessons or something to try and be like, look, you know, look at look, we're really, really connected to the performing arts, but but then ultimately, education was was the 1 you went to. But that's 1 of the key criteria, isn't it?
Dave Sharp:When you're trying to have your initial filter of there's all these competitions out there, but what ones do we actually think there's a good chance of us even going to that next step with? Is that connection thing the the kind of 1 of the secrets?
Alison Brooks:It is that connection and it's also the people on the team, you know, who, you know, I have fantastic people in the office, my associates sort of key design, colleagues. And we for for example, for the Exeter College competition, I was working with Carrie Edmonds who's who is a graduate of Cambridge University who understands the collegiate context and had worked with me for quite a few years. We we had, you know, there's a sort of mutual understanding and appreciation of a certain design approach, a certain design legacy and ambition, and you need those people with you on your team to, yes, to to make it happen. There there are other things that, you know, some people might think are too remote, but Exeter you know, Oxford and Cambridge are like heaven. Right?
Alison Brooks:They're they're the unbelievably beautiful examples of a of a sort of urban urban context made by colleges, which are many of which are gothic or neo gothic. They're based on the monastery, the monastic tradition. They have accumulated over time courtyard buildings that reflect a community, an idea of self sufficiency, community. And a lot of the, well, with Exeter College in particular, the alumni were fascinating. You know, William Morris is an alumnus of Exeter College, the sort of, you know, founder and great thinker, who of the arts and crafts movement, of sort of craft and art as a social project and economic political project.
Alison Brooks:And I sort of grew up in a household in Canada where with my mother who was, you know, William Morris's number 1 fan. She, you know, she belonged to the William Morris Society. I think she was president of it for a while. You know, our house was filled with books about the arts and crafts movement and the Bloomsbury set in William Morris. And I traveled around the UK with my mother in 1985, I think.
Alison Brooks:And we went to Oxford and Cambridge and, you know, did a kind of grand tour. And so I and Tolkien, you know, Tolkien is an alumnus of Exeter College. Martin Amis, like, these sort of literary and artistic figures who I felt I had sort of learned from and appreciated. And so that I think also is meaningful. Like, how do how do these contexts, how do these situations how are they meaningful for you as an architect personally?
Alison Brooks:And I think that that personal connection, even though it's historical, you know, it's spiritual or some other sort of intangible connection that I think clients feel or see when you're speaking about a project. It's like this is an actual meaningful connection to this this, architect and in a way feeds into the principle of authorship and authenticity, which which I also advocate that, you know, as a as an architect, you need to stand up for your position. Authorship is important and sort of finding, you know, there's that shared word, you know, of auto, ATH, authorship, authenticity. It's about taking a stand, making your position clear and being prepared to defend that position. And that is that is quite a personal thing.
Alison Brooks:And I think it's a a kind of power of, that an that architects have that they're often, you know, don't feel confident about or think that they shouldn't be talking about it, that it all has to be collective or it all has to be consensus. And I think that people, you know, sort of the audiences who really appreciate architecture or, you know, the built environment, They want to know that the the author of that project has this source of inspiration, whether it's personal experience, personal history. You know, that that identification with the with the sort of creative process and the or the mind or the personality that produces that work, that is meaningful. That creates a connection between us and, the the people who we're working to serve.
Dave Sharp:I completely agree with you. I think architects with like the best intentions have sort of gone well. You know, architecture used to be a very portrayed as a very singular kind of design coming from 1 individual. There's a sort of egotistical kind of thing going on with all of that And the reality is, yeah, patriarchal, this like bloke who's up there, you know, taking credit for the work that everyone else is doing and all this sort of thing. And so obviously, we try to sort of, you know, move it in the other direction where it is that more kind of collective thing and that there's a lot of, a lot of people that contribute to the projects and it's not about the singular person yet.
Dave Sharp:However, it's like in the storytelling and what the client sees, I think there's just maybe nothing that can really compare to that idea of that authentic authorship and creative vision and inspiration, and that stuff's still really important and I think maybe in trying to go in the right direction with this stuff, maybe we're throwing the baby out with the bath water a little bit sometimes in terms of I mean, lots of architects that have this attitude that wouldn't wanna rely on any of that sort of personal anecdotal, personal inspiration, personal vision because, that's not the way of things, you know, that's not how we wanna do stuff anymore. But seriously, from a client standpoint, I feel like that's a big missed opportunity. Right?
Alison Brooks:Yeah. I I totally agree. I I think the clients, even if they are commissioning a project where there will be multiple architects on a team, a collaboration, I think they still want each architect on that team, their work to be identifiable, to have its own voice. That's the whole point of diversity is is not to unify everything into 1 narrative or 1 solution. And yeah.
Alison Brooks:So I I do I do believe that that is also particularly pertinent and relevant for a female architect as well because we need to, you know, the the profession has been dominated by these singular patriarchal voices for for so long, and there is a shortage of female architects running their own practices. And we need to kind of claim claim that space and share it, of course. But, yeah, it's too soon to just relinquish sort of authorship, I think. I I don't think it's I think it's a human instinct to want to know the stories of the people we are dealing with or the people we work with. Those stories, those human stories are what bring us together, and and it's what makes our, you know, your approach or your values unique.
Dave Sharp:Also just going back to, I guess like the client's experience, I mean, whether it's a university chancellor or, you know, a head of their estates or whatever the bursar or whoever's running things or whether it's like an individual with their house, what I've picked up from these end clients in conversations that I've had is that oftentimes the choice about which architect that they decide to work with is ultimately down to just reading whether that architect seemed personally, actually interested in doing the project. Because I think, like, you know, the sense that I get from these clients is that they can see a lot of architects that will turn up and go through the motions to try and win the job, but what they can always see through is, is there actual real personal authentic passion and interest in our project? They don't respond well to an architect, who is just really basically doing it for business or doing it for some other reason, and they can see that lack of authenticity and that commitment. And so, like, I think the way that you've described, you know, finding those projects that you've got that personal meaningful connection to is a really good insight because I think that's something that, above all else, clients, they really respond to that.
Dave Sharp:That's something that they're looking for. They wanna know that, I guess, their architect is as invested in the project as they are.
Alison Brooks:Absolutely. I I think they need to see that well, and they can see sincerity. You know, you need to be sincere, and you need to convey that sincerity. And I think often, you know, these some of these historically, you know, when you're nervous, when you're presenting, it's hard to convey enthusiasm when you're nervous. And I think a lot of young architects, you know, that's sort of what happens because it just takes practice, right, to unless you are sort of emerge fully formed as an architecture graduate, sort of knowing how to present to, you know, long tables of, you know, 20 mainly men in an age group.
Dave Sharp:In their light sixties. Yeah.
Alison Brooks:Yeah. Yeah. Peering over their glasses at you at the end of the table. You know, it's, it's not it's not really a format where that generates a relaxed conversation. So having that skill and a lot of the very successful architects in the UK, they are men.
Alison Brooks:They are charming. They have beautiful English accents. They feel totally at home in those contexts. So it it hasn't been easy for me as a kind of outsider to break into that space and feel comfortable there. But I think, you know, with time, it gets easier.
Alison Brooks:And, you know, just knowing that you you have things to offer, you know, we we I have experience. My team has experience. We have skills and competence and expertise. That means we we can deliver their project. And and we are actually good people to work with, and we will give this project our all because you do you do sort of you it's kind of like getting married to these clients.
Alison Brooks:Right? You sort of give your life to a project for 6, 7, 8 years, maybe longer than some people are actually married. So you, you need to feel that, yes, this is a person that we can we can work with. And this is, like, you know, equally, this is a client that we would love to work with.
Dave Sharp:Do you have any final conclosures, any reflections? We've talked about kind of a bunch of different topics, but just, you know, anything else that's been that sprung to mind as we've been having this conversation.
Alison Brooks:I often tell my students because I I have taught over the years, at quite a few different institutions. I teach a master's in housing at ATSAM in Madrid. I've taught at Harvard and Cornell, the AA. And I often tell my students how important it is to be able to articulate your ideas with words. That writing is super important in architecture.
Alison Brooks:I spend a lot more time writing than I do designing. You know, designing is quick compared to articulating the processes and the the sort of not just the form generating ideas, but the understanding of the client's brief and the understanding of their needs, articulating those in your own words, and then presenting an approach that represents value and represents, solutions and innovation, it has to be done with words long before you produce a design proposal because all these RFQs and all and many RFPs, they don't ask for designs, but they ask for an approach. And so I think honing your writing skills is really important as a practice and making sure that those words, you know, every word counts. You can spend a long time designing a sentence. Well, you know that every word counts.
Alison Brooks:You're doing podcasts and, you know, with huge audiences. And, you know, don't always rely on chat gpt for, you know, that the writing of chat gpt is pretty obvious Yes. When it's gone through those filters. You have to make it your voice, and it has to, you know, avoiding jargon. There's a lot of, there are a lot of tropes and a lot of things that are said now in architectural circles that everybody is saying and that that you need to reframe and rephrase through your, your own lens, your through your experience, through your belief system.
Alison Brooks:And so working on articulating those ideas is in words is really, really important.
Dave Sharp:So essentially, podcasting is the way to go is what you're saying. Well, it it's interesting Skip the writing, go straight to the podcasting.
Alison Brooks:I I think it's well, it's another way of, you know, in a way, practicing. You know, writers become good at writing by practicing writing, and you become good at articulating your ideas by articulating your ideas and and your thought processes and your values? And and this is also you know, competitions make you do that because you have to write your concept statements. You have to explain it in words. And also publishing is important.
Alison Brooks:Websites, we we all know we all know about that. But I think now we are we have audiences via LinkedIn and via Instagram and podcasts, you know, social media where you you are conveying thought leadership or research or your personal opinion on things in, you know, relatively condensed format. And that that also takes work. It takes honing and and those words. This is why journalists love Twitter and, you know, these formats because that's that's their business is words.
Alison Brooks:And so they love these social media, text based platforms. But I think architects also are now required to put your principles out there on those platforms. And so just, you know, making sure that what you're doing is meaningful and it's well written and it and it's authentic, you know, it's it's your voice that's that's stating these these ideas or concepts or positions.
Dave Sharp:Lovely. Alyson, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Alison Brooks:It's been a pleasure.
Dave Sharp:That was my conversation with Alison Brooks of Alison Brooks Architects. If you'd like to learn more about their studio, you can visit alisonbrooksarchitects dotcom or follow them on instagram at alisonbrooksarchitects. Office talk is hosted by Office Dave Sharp, a strategic marketing and brand definition practice for architecture. We work collaboratively with clients across the globe. So to learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit officedavesharpe.com.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode of Office Talk was edited and engineered by Anthony Richardson of Simple Dwelling Studio. That's all for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. I'll see you next
Alison Brooks:time.
