Nimtim
Welcome to Office Talk, a fortnightly podcast featuring in-depth conversations with leading architects about their approach to business marketing and communications. I'm your host, Dave Sharp, an architectural marketing expert and director of Office Dave Sharp, a marketing practice offering specialized consultancy, marketing, and PR services tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Visit office dave sharp.com to learn more or follow the practice on Instagram at office dave sharp. Joining me on the show today are Nimmy Atanaike and Tim O'Callaghan, the directors of Nimtim Architects, a London based practice known for their approach to sustainable, unique, and playful architecture. In this episode, Nimmy, Tim, and I discussed how taking a year off from architecture to travel India led to their first project together and the start of their new practice.
Dave Sharp:They reflected on the challenges in the early days of starting their office and discussed the importance of connecting with colleagues in the profession so that you can ask questions or just vent your frustrations. They talked about how the COVID downturn gave them time to reflect on what was important to them, communicate their values, and understand what makes a unique NimTIM project. We spoke about how having a clear and legible narrative for each project allows it to be easily understood by the client and better used for marketing and publications. And finally, we spoke about the importance of having workshops with the local community at the beginning of the design process and how NimTim ensures that community wants and needs are understood by the client. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Nimmy and Tim from Nimtim Architects.
Dave Sharp:Nimmi and Tim, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Tim O'Callaghan:Thanks for having us.
Nimi Attanayake:Yeah. Thank you.
Dave Sharp:I would love to start off as always with the backstory of the practice. Niam, Tim, how did you guys meet? How did you start the practice? Tell us the story.
Nimi Attanayake:We met doing our masters in Westminster University. So we were really young. We were like 22?
Tim O'Callaghan:23, yes, I know that.
Nimi Attanayake:And we were in the weirdly, we chose the same design unit to be in. And the design units were really small, so like there was maybe only 12 of us, a mixture of the masters year 1 year 2. So we met during our studies and then we got together in the 2nd year of our studies. We ended up living together after studies and working for different practices, sort of larger practices I guess, kind of, you know when you're in a big practice, you're a small cog in a big kind of machine. And it was around 2,009 I think that we graduated and then the ash cloud happened in Iceland.
Nimi Attanayake:I was made redundant, which was a massive thing actually because a lot of the building schools for the future, a lot of the big government projects where the practice that I was at, which was Hawkins Brown and they did lots of big government work, like schools, hospitals, local authority work, that all stopped. So then they had to make massive redundancies. So yes, that was a massive thing that happened, I guess, to me. And we ended up going travelling for a year, which is We took her
Tim O'Callaghan:like a year off, which was really quite amazing. It was, like, kind of like a financial crisis.
Nimi Attanayake:It was a recession, wasn't it, around then?
Tim O'Callaghan:But that was quite, a sort of formative thing in our relationship and I think quite a bit in our architecture, I think.
Nimi Attanayake:I think there's been a lot of time where me specifically has questioned whether I wanna do architecture and by taking especially when I was made redundant and then we went away and actually we were like, it's amazing, architecture's great, you see it everywhere. We were really inspired and we did a bit of, it was during that trip that we actually did a bit of work, like sort of for charities, NGOs, just a bit of work. It sort of happened by chance, but it was the first time that I think that we worked together.
Tim O'Callaghan:Yeah, we bumped into some Australians actually who were working for charity in, Ahmedabad. They're cool guys, actually. And they're like, oh, you're architects. Oh, right. Oh, we need to, like we're like we're trying to build, like, a community in one of the slums in, Ahmedabad.
Tim O'Callaghan:So yeah. And I guess that was the first time that me and Nimmi had actually kind of designed something together.
Nimi Attanayake:And it was really fun, and I think it it worked. It it was good. And then we came back, obviously entered back into the real world, really broke after traveling for a year, so we went and obviously worked in respective offices And then a few years later, I was diagnosed with cancer, ovarian cancer, and again that was another massive change where we again started questioning, like, if this is what we wanna do, Well, me specifically, I think Tim's always been slightly different. And so I took some time out from architecture. Tim sort of struggled with trying to handle everything that was going on at home with me and my illness and try to work and I think after a few years, I think you then sort of decided actually you wanted a bit more creative control, you wanted a bit more work life balance, and so you ended up leaving where you were.
Nimi Attanayake:And and you actually originally set up Nymptim on your own.
Tim O'Callaghan:I think we talk about this quite a bit. And, I mean, the story behind them, Tim, is the personal story behind them, Tim, is quite kind of important, I think, to who we are as a practice and the values that we have. And it kind of grew out of that experience, which was obviously quite difficult. At the time, it was about kind of having a bit more control over our life, and where we were heading. And yeah.
Tim O'Callaghan:So NimdTim started with me at the kitchen table with, a laptop, and it kind of grew from there. I don't think we we hadn't kind of gone through our relationship
Dave Sharp:up to
Tim O'Callaghan:that point thinking that we would set up a practice together. Mhmm. I think, in fact, we joked that it would probably be a terrible idea. But, so it kind of happened by accident. And I think that was quite interesting because, we didn't kinda go into it with a preconception about what it would be like, and we hadn't kind of mapped it out from the get go.
Nimi Attanayake:I think we both understood at the time we had really differing skill sets. So, Tim had done a lot of small scale resi, I hadn't done any, I'd done big projects, maybe high end projects, and it was actually quite interesting that we could come back together and then learn from each other. Even though we'd come from different scale of practice, neither one of us had like ever written an invoice. We'd never done any marketing, we'd never done any pitching, we'd never really done any, I hadn't done any face to face client stuff, but there was so much that we just didn't know at the beginning. And unfortunately, like Tim had to do a lot of it really quickly, which you did, I think there was also a period of where I think you needed to come to terms with what had happened with me, that kind of addressing mortality stuff and so there was a period where I was sort of working and you were off and so you could kind of have that time to kind of regroup, reassess, also sort of start things up, like setting up templates, all that stuff, all that boring stuff?
Tim O'Callaghan:Yeah. I think it's like we neither of us have been in kinda senior management positions within the practices that we've been in. And so, that was quite a challenge because all of that stuff wasn't part of what we knew. We hadn't kind of been face to face with it. So we kinda started from scratch, and that was a challenge.
Tim O'Callaghan:But I think, actually, it's been quite good. Not knowing how everything is done normally is is hard, but you you you then because you have to do it afresh. But it gives you the opportunity to do it your own way Yeah. Because you're you're kind of deciding how to do it. So you we obviously look around and look look for, advice and we've been we've always brought in advice, I think.
Nimi Attanayake:And we were really lucky that I don't I think there's been a massive shift in the way that architectural practices run, especially small architectural practices. And you instantly had a group of people who were all sort of setting up around the same time and you could all feed into each other and it's massive that, because, you know, just to sort of sound out frustrations or just to ask, hey guys, who do you go get your insurance from? You know, boring questions, but, and I think in the past, architecture practices have been really reluctant to share and I think it's something that we're seeing a lot more of now from, like, younger practices that are setting up that actually it's all about the greater good, you know, it's not I'm just for myself and I'm gonna protect my work and protect my ego and my practice. It's now really interchangeable. It's not so siloed as it used to be.
Tim O'Callaghan:Yeah. Definitely. I think that's been a really important thing that's helped nurture the practice. At, like, at every stage, we've had friends and colleagues who've been really generous in terms of sharing what they know, like things that they do. And, you know, we've we're part of several different groups at different scales, and, you know, we're we're now now we're kind of 10 strong practice.
Tim O'Callaghan:We're kind of part of a bigger, more formal group, London Practice Forum, which again is like a really incredible resource for, you know, if you so you don't know about HR or PR or or whatever it might be, or or or, you know, who's a good accountant to use? Who's what how what's this app? Like, what's this kind of, bit of software like? You know, it's just it's so useful to be able to do that and and also just to feel supported. So that's been a really important part.
Nimi Attanayake:I think, yeah, I think at the beginning, we didn't really have a strong idea about what what work was going to be produced or what our values were or who we are really and it's been really nice actually to grow with the practice and actually, strangely, it was over lockdown that we had time to then reflect and actually look back at our portfolio and sort of understand, well, why are these successful projects? What makes them NimTIM projects? And it was actually during that time where we sort of had that reassess or like moment of reflection that I think we really honed in on what we were about and what was really important to us. And then after that, everything shifted.
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Dave Sharp:So to learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit office dave sharp dot com. Okay. Let's talk about that. I guess that COVID period, that reflecting period, was that brought about by getting to, like, maybe a bit of a rebrand process or you decide, okay, time to do something with the website or whatever. Was that the sort of situation where COVID, it was a bit quieter, you were able to go, like, let's do some more working on the business type improvement, and then it began that process from there.
Nimi Attanayake:We didn't wanna do a rebrand. We didn't work on the website. It was more just sitting down with everybody and talking about, wow, guys, what why what what why are we good at what we do or why are the projects really well received, or what do we like about what we do?
Tim O'Callaghan:Yeah. I mean, there's there's loads of things to talk about. Go go back a step. One of the things about kind of coming into the practice without having having a set idea about how things should work, what you can do is kind of reflect on things that you didn't like that much in the in the work that you had been doing before in the practice. And one of the key things was always feeling slightly frustrated or, distant from decision making or kind of by their practice direction.
Tim O'Callaghan:So it's always been really important to us to bring everyone into that it's
Nimi Attanayake:never really about it's our design. It's about, it's never really about it's our design. It's about everybody should have ownership of that design. Everybody that's involved in the project should be involved in the design of the project, including the builder, the client, the job runner, me and Tim. So it's all it's always been about inclusivity.
Tim O'Callaghan:Yeah. It's like we've invited them into the conversation. So then going back to that kind of period, we'd been going for probably 5 years at that point, and we'd done quite a lot of projects. We'd built quite a lot and had quite a lot of success kind of publishing.
Nimi Attanayake:You know? We'd been going for about 7 years.
Tim O'Callaghan:Yeah. Maybe it's longer.
Dave Sharp:7 years at that point. Yep.
Tim O'Callaghan:We'd done quite a lot. And then we were kind of thinking, well, what do we do with this stuff? And then thinking about kind of building a narrative for the practice because we didn't really have one. Because we hadn't set off with a manifesto about, like, this is what who we are. It had kind of grown organically through building and doing stuff, which I think is quite interesting.
Tim O'Callaghan:We're aware that we needed to have a bit more of a define ourselves a bit more, more, give ourselves a, a message that we were gonna send out to the world. So we took the projects that we'd done, and we sat down with the team and we sort of looked at them all. We we pinned them up on the wall and we sort of said, what what did these what are these what are these telling us? What what are we do? You know, what are we doing?
Tim O'Callaghan:What's the con what's the thing that's consistent about them? And a lot of the projects look quite different. You know? There's not there's not necessarily an architectural consistency across it.
Nimi Attanayake:But yet there are some similarities. There's a thread that there's definitely a thread that links them together, but they are they are they have individual qualities, definitely. Yeah.
Tim O'Callaghan:Yeah. And so when we so when we kinda looked at them, we were kind of like, well, actually, what we see is, like, the people that we're building it for reflected back. And it was also messages that we got from from clients when we were getting feedback. They were like, we really feel like you understood us, and you reflected what we wanted in the in the in the, outcome. And I think that is and then and when we talked about it, we kind of reflected that intuitively.
Tim O'Callaghan:That's how we'd been working. It'd been about kind of creating something together.
Nimi Attanayake:And also, I think there'd been a lot of joy in seeing clients get involved. Like, for example, clients would then go off and make their own tiles that they would then use in the project or they would go and make a kitchen island, like the marble, and so it was always really nice I think for us and the team to see the clients take ownership. And even like a few years after the projects are completed and you see the clients posting, you know, Christmas in their house, you know, as, you know, their sort of Instagram shots of them living in it was really, really nice for everyone.
Tim O'Callaghan:We took that and kind of decide sort of thought about how that would translate into a bigger kind of ethos, mission statement about who we are. And that is about, like, we design. We we we we we create buildings that reflect the people that are gonna use them. And so that's become the kind of venture of the office. And so after that, we then develop, like, a briefing game that we play with, the people that are gonna you know, the clients or end users that kind of unpicks what they want and begins a process of understanding and, dialogue that will inform project as we go forward.
Tim O'Callaghan:So what was in what's interesting is that as soon as we kind of defined it and sent it out into the world, we suddenly get it started, gave all these other opportunities. It really, I think, resonated.
Nimi Attanayake:I think we also came from a background where, or when we were reflecting the projects, they were all for people that aren't in the industry. So they don't know any of the terminology. They don't really even know the process And it was creating a method to talk to them in a really simple, clear way that is transferable. And I think now people understand how important that is, that communication with people, because that's what you wanna do. You wanna bring people on the journey with you and and in the successful narrative of the project, how many people can understand it.
Dave Sharp:Coming back to your message about reflecting the client, it's very genuine and truthful to the studio. I think, like, if it's just articulated to the world in those terms, the problem that you get is that it's kind of something that a lot of studios say. It's sort of a ubiquitous message, particularly in practices that are sort of residential where it's like we reflect clients and reflect their personalities and all that sort of thing, or we listen to your brief, but that's as deep as they go with it. Would you agree that it's about what you kind of do with it and the ideas sort of come off it that that sort of make it work? It's interesting that you say that because I don't think that was
Tim O'Callaghan:a common message maybe even 10 years ago. I think architects still perceive themselves as kind of having a
Nimi Attanayake:A vision.
Tim O'Callaghan:A vision or a product that people kind of procure. It's like, oh, I really wanna have this kind of architecture. But, I mean, I think what's interesting about the residential market is that people especially the people that come to us, obviously, one, they they don't wanna kind of be they don't they don't wanna kind of pick out a nice architect to give them a design. They wanna go on a journey and create something themselves.
Nimi Attanayake:And it's always been really nice, actually. I think I think a lot of our clients have understood that they are going to go on a journey with us and we've always really loved how they come to us at the initial kind of stages, like we've had, some clients have built Lego models, some clients have got like felt mind maps, like the way that they try and convey their ideas is so creative and I think they recognize that we're really accepting of that, that we're really enjoying that. And they feel almost agency that they can do that, which is really nice.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. Because there's definitely some studios and there's a lot of them that I have on the podcast that if they walked in like that with their felt model or their Lego, it would be like we'd pretend no one's in the office. You know, we're it would be seriously, like, rejected for that approach. I have guests on the podcast who will even say, like, if someone brings in a Pinterest board, we'll recommend them to another architect. You know, that is not uncommon.
Dave Sharp:I would say, generally, there has been a big change from 10 years ago where I think a lot more people would like that sort of more traditional mentality, But I love it. You're just embracing that approach of really wanting the client to be involved, and it's still not every studio wants that. That's great. It's an extension of how and, again, it comes back to this sort of idea that it's kind
Tim O'Callaghan:of organically developed. As Nimi said, in The Office, where me and Nimi are, like, quite un precious about having ownership of the projects, And we so, you know, we're really keen that each, job run, each project architect brings their own voice to what we do. And you see that as well in our visuals. You know, we don't have, like, a house style visual because we basically have really great people working for us who've got their own kind of way of doing things. And so we wanna invite them to kinda bring that to to what we do.
Tim O'Callaghan:And, so that kind of idea that it's not kind of owned by someone, there's no kind of authorship, I think we try and extend that out to the people that we're building for. And you have to have a mentality that, they can bring just as good ideas as you can. You're the you're you've got the technical knowledge and the understanding of, like, what's possible and how to do it. But and I mean, even from lots of our most kind of recognizable projects, the things that people always talk about, like the yellow windows at Yellow House and the cork. And lots of the ideas that we kind of things that people remember about our projects were things that clients came with.
Tim O'Callaghan:I think the pink windows at Cork House were the clients. You have to be open oh, well, like, why can't can the rabbit have a door in the
Nimi Attanayake:Hot toss.
Tim O'Callaghan:In the into the garden? Can the can the rabbit have its own door into the garden? And you're like, well, yeah, why not?
Nimi Attanayake:Like Can the dogs have a panic room?
Tim O'Callaghan:Can the dogs have a panic room?
Dave Sharp:Those are interesting examples because a lot of other conversations I have with practices, they find themselves in this situation where they're saying, you know, we're having a hard time convincing the client to think about anything but resale value and the next person who's gonna buy the house, and they're petrified of doing anything but a white box that will be able to sell to somebody else. Like, there's this sense that the architect is having to go, it's okay. Relax. They're probably just gonna knock down this kitchen anyway, whoever buys it next. Just do what you wanna do.
Dave Sharp:Make it your place. Reflect yourself. And I feel like there's that encouragement coming from the architecture side. But you guys have amazingly got these clients that are coming, going, give me the crazy dog dog. How's that happen?
Dave Sharp:Is it because, like, that's what we put out
Nimi Attanayake:into the world? I think that's something where when we play the briefing game, we can kind of sort of talk about, well, how would you like to live now? Okay, but your kids are 2, but how would you might like to live when they're like 12, 14? So we're scenario testing it and ultimately that then creates value, and then they kind of go with the kind of crazy choices. And I think at the end of the project, I think then they realize that they've got something really special and not all, like, some of our clients have sold, there's been a few that have sold and I think that they've taken joy in what we've done.
Nimi Attanayake:They've lived in it for, like, maybe 1 or 2 years and then they've actually seen the value in what we've done And, actually, he they've, you know, they've made they've made money on it anyway even though it is a bit different.
Dave Sharp:Yeah.
Nimi Attanayake:It it's got selling quality because of that. It's unique.
Tim O'Callaghan:Yep. I I think there's a couple of things on that. Sometimes clients value design more than architects. And, so they're like, I'm I'm happy to invest in this house even though I'm only gonna live here for 5 years because I really value I'm prepared to spend extra and more to have a nice place to live. And it comes down to fees as well.
Tim O'Callaghan:And sometimes we we, you know, we get people with really small budgets and we'll be like, this is too small. You can't really you know, our fees are gonna be too much. And they're like, I don't care. I'm gonna I wanna spend money. Some of those architects get trapped in the idea that of of not understanding their value more than the clients.
Tim O'Callaghan:I think that's one thing. But also, I think the arc the the market in London is such, especially with the rise of kind of modern house and other, estate agents is such that people now actually I think, you you know, an architect designed house can increase the value. And it might be quite personal, but people love it. I mean, I think one house that we did one of the early houses we did in, which, was a kind of big, Victorian house where we the kind of wanted to do an extension. And we said that, actually, you've got loads of space here.
Tim O'Callaghan:Why don't you take out some of the space and create a kind of dramatic double height space? They reduced the floor space, but that house recently exceeded the value of any house on the street, similar, even ones with extensions, because it just had a really, well, we'd like to think, a really great living space that connected different floors.
Nimi Attanayake:And I think, well, I think also we unlocked the space. You know, like we unlocked what would have been unusable. I think clients want to maximize on space, you know, they wanna maximize on storage, they wanna maximize on creating a nice space that they can live in because otherwise it's sort of dark, cold, dingy and they just sort of shut the door on it and think it's fine, we don't need it as a space, but actually by getting architects in and kind of looking at how you can really make the house or the building work really hard for you means that you're utilizing every element. And then I think that has a value to it. Like, if you go to sell it, you'll be like, oh, god, look at that clever store, Luna, and look, you've got a utility in there, even though it's just cupboards.
Nimi Attanayake:But but, you know, people can see that you're you're using it really well.
Dave Sharp:You actually made a really great point, Nimmi, that there is still a bit of a journey that you take them on to get to that point where they've got that enthusiasm for that highly personal design. Right? It's those sort of process steps like the briefing game that you've sort of designed and developed that have actually been able to get to sort of lead them to the right mindset. Just in a nutshell, what does the briefing game involve?
Nimi Attanayake:So the briefing game, I I don't know, Tim, if you wanna describe it, but it we we basically have counters and, we've got 3 different types of counters, so we've got activities, qualities, and objects. And we sort of look at the house or the building as it is and we map these counters where these activities, qualities, and objects are and then we take away the building or the house and we sort of say, okay, abstract, how do you want it to be? How do you want these things connected? What do you want next to them? And then we've got blank ones so they can include things that are really important to them that are maybe not, that we don't know about.
Nimi Attanayake:So sometimes there's like a chair that their teenage daughter likes to go and sulk in and that's a really important thing and so we put that into the briefing game. And also we have a kind of session where we talk about a concept or kind of, I don't wanna call them rules, but just we have a kind of design idea and it's quite clear and we do it with, like, really simple diagram and that, along with the briefing game, allows everything, all the other decisions to hang off. It sort of means that they can't sort of come and say, oh, we saw this amazing, fluffy, I don't know, bench, we wanna use it. And we'll be like, well, actually, hold on a minute, let's go back to your briefing game. Let's go back to the concept that was developed from the briefing game.
Nimi Attanayake:Does that fit? And then they kind of accept it. And actually what tends to happen more is they buy into the concept and the briefing game and then they clearly understand what fits in with it and they go with that. So they bring stuff to you that they think works and we're like, great, you've understood the concept, you've understood the briefing game. Then the other thing we do is we think really hard about materials and textures and color, and so we have another session on that as well.
Tim O'Callaghan:Well, we frame it as kind of workshops. So at each kind of stage, it's it's mapped out as a series of workshops. So the beefing game gets kinda start. Is the is embedding this idea that we're doing it together, which obviously we're we're obviously doing a lot of the work and kind of, doing what most architects do. But sort of framing it as something that, we did do which is which is genuine.
Tim O'Callaghan:You know, we have, like, these workshops at the beginning of each stage, which kind of set out, you know, that level of detail. What's What's interesting about the briefing game, there's no fixed outcome, and everyone does it differently. So, you know, you get some people who don't who are really nonvisual, who don't like kind of be engaging them. They're just kinda talking, but it's still a really good platform to try and understand them and try and get a kind of sense of what they're looking to achieve. It's also really good because within households, obviously, you've got different, needs, wants.
Tim O'Callaghan:Ages. Ages. Yeah, exactly. And, it's a good way of teasing that out, you know, from people and getting them to decide collectively what they want. It's so it's really good in that sense.
Tim O'Callaghan:And then the other good thing about it the other thing that's really been transformative about the briefing game is because it doesn't require us. It's like it's a thing that anyone in the office can kinda pick up and use as the kind of start of the process. So we've kinda created a process that everyone in the office can follow, and it means that we can kind of take a bit of a step back from having to be involved in those, early stages. We got processes mapped out. It kind of always gives a kind of consistent outcome, and that's been really good as well.
Tim O'Callaghan:And it's empowered the team to kind of feel like they own the process. But, also, we've got a confidence that we know that we're gonna get a kind of Nim Tim project out of it.
Dave Sharp:And that part that we're gonna get a Nim Tim project out of it, you guys have a very relaxed and sort of unprecious view of we don't need to be, like, super micromanaging, top down controlling, like, every aspect of the design where the client is on the outside looking in, the staff from the outside looking like, you've got a much more it's cool, wet, chill kind of it will roll out. It'll be cool. We've got good people, good clients, good process. It'll all turn out great. But I'm wondering, like, what the little safety net is in there from the design standpoint.
Dave Sharp:I guess that thing that ensures that it doesn't end up progressing and going off in a direction where you guys are going like, this is becoming a really different type of project that just doesn't feel like us at all. What are the guardrails that kinda keep it roughly in the right zone where you want it to be?
Nimi Attanayake:I think I think we check-in. I think we check-in at each point and I think because we've got the process and we've got those moments where we've had a briefing game, we've done a concept workshop, we've done a materials workshop, and we have like regular design reviews within the practice, I think we've got moments where we do touch base and we do assess those things. And I think that as long as, like, we can see that it's it's moving in the right way, like, I think separately to all this, there's been some discussion, like, as a practice about, for example, materiality that we wanna start using, like, you know, with the environment and the climate crisis, there's issues around sort of ethics, like, for example, trying to use more sustainable or natural materials, you know, and using those for insulation, for example, with, you know, what happened at Grenfell. So we, as a practice, have been separately thinking about our values and our standpoint on various things and that, again, because we include everyone, everyone is aware of. So, as long as we put the briefing game, the sort of the concept, the materials, the values that we have in the project, it will always be a success, it will always be, and it might not be same.
Nimi Attanayake:It might not be as expected, and it might not be somewhere that maybe me or Tim wanna live, but it's gonna be a successful NimTIM project because it's gonna be for our clients.
Dave Sharp:And, also, the part you mentioned, Nimmi, about how when the client was looking for the fluffy chair, that they just loved the chair and they just felt like, oh, it's gotta go somewhere. And you're going, well, hang on. This part of the process, we agreed on this stuff, this concept. We have the materiality workshop. We agreed on that, and you're able to sort of bring them back and stop it sort of just becoming this bolted on weird combination of random bits and pieces that have happened along the way.
Dave Sharp:There is still a little bit of, I wanna say pushback, but challenging challenging clients, you know, like, in a positive way for their own benefit.
Nimi Attanayake:Yeah. I think we've learned this is a really good quality of Tim, but he he he will always wanna know why. Why do you want that weird, fluffy chair that doesn't fit? What is it about it that you like? And then we bring it back to, okay, well, this is the concept, this is the brief, this is the brief and and these are the materials we agreed on.
Nimi Attanayake:Let's try and create, okay, we understand why, let's try and create an alternative that fits with the concept and everything else that also meets your kinda need. So, yeah, there is a bit of pushback, but we do it in such a way that it's actually not like that just doesn't work. It's more about, well, okay, you're well within your right to bring something that you want. We totally get that, But why are you bringing that to us?
Dave Sharp:I guess, like, that idea of developing it in the stages that you're talking about, I think what your projects, you know, seem to be kind of well known for, I guess, is this idea of a clear narrative or concept that people can see. They can read it in the imagery. They can understand it. You don't have to have a master's degree in architecture to really get what your work is kind of about. If it's okay to say that, I feel like it's accessible to everybody.
Dave Sharp:So I'm really curious about what you guys think of those common thread in the work that tends to give it that sort of more accessible quality.
Nimi Attanayake:It's quite a current question at the moment and I think a lot of people find our projects joyful or playful and that's what resonates and I think we've always wondered why is that? And I think the answer that we've come up with is that they are meaningful, that they're meaningful projects, they're meaningful to their clients, or they're meaningful to the people that are gonna use them, and that's what makes them joyful and playful. And that's maybe the common thread to the work.
Tim O'Callaghan:It's actually interesting to reflect on it now just talking with you. The the practice is kind of a combination of mine and Nimmi's approaches and ideas. And And I think the projects are as well in a way. And I think so there's always a kind of clear idea and concept that you is is legible. And I think if we're asking, like, what is an Indian project, that's a key ingredient.
Tim O'Callaghan:And then I think there's also on top of that, a sort of sense of playfulness that sits above this kind of kind of quite, rigorous idea. So it's never playfulness for the sake
Nimi Attanayake:of it. I think it's the process. I think the process underpins the playfulness and the joy Yeah. Which is quite which is quite rigorous.
Tim O'Callaghan:Yeah. It is. And I think those that and then in terms of why does it resonate or how do we kind of send it out into the world so it resonates with people, I think one thing that we've always tried to do slightly differently is sometimes it's always been traditionally with architecture. It's like the client comes and says, I want a school. And you're like, okay, here's the school, and it's got all the things that you want.
Tim O'Callaghan:And here's our architectural idea that we're gonna share with the other architects and put out into the architectural press about it. And I think we've always felt like there shouldn't be that division. You know? You know, people are smart. Everyone's you know, everyone can understand.
Tim O'Callaghan:And we what we wanna do is make is not have that division. There's an idea that is sort of, like, interesting enough that it stimulates architects, but also simple enough, that everyone else can kind of read and understand. And, that's always been what how we've wanted to do it. We've always wanted to have a a project that, you know, it's it's not so high brow that it's not something that everyone else everyone can buy into. And I think having that narrative that's clear and legible has been one of the reasons why, you know, a lot of our really small projects, these tiny projects in London have had this incredible resonance around the world.
Tim O'Callaghan:And they get, you know, court has been published everywhere. And like our projects get published all over and people, you know, they pop up in in Pinterest and hate tweets and Instagram all the time. There's there's something about it that resonates with people, and we're just really excited that that happens. Hopefully, it's because we've got we're trying to kinda create a narrative that everyone can buy into and kind of read.
Dave Sharp:And, also, it feels like not afraid to make the ideas a bit more bold and overt. I mean, some architects, I think, would be wanting everything to be so subtle to the point where it wouldn't even be legible. You wouldn't even notice it. He was saying it's like playfulness is there, but it's not playfulness the way that, you know, you'll see some architects put slides everywhere and nets and little rock climbing things up and down all the walls. And it was like a really, really kinda cringey trend in, like, in residential work where it had nothing to do with the client, had no meaningfulness.
Dave Sharp:It was just, like, sort of attached. You know? Whereas I feel like what you guys are doing, it's it's still quite bold and it but at the same time, it's coming from a place that, as you said, Nimmi, is actually a reflection of the client. It has a story behind it. Like, the reason that things are the shape they are or the color they are or the material they are, there's, like, a story to be told, I guess, about why it's like that.
Nimi Attanayake:And that story is really it's told really simply. It's told really simply back to the client, but it's also told as we promote the work or market the work, we use that same story and I think because it's simple and it's clear, it's easy to understand, then it's really accessible.
Dave Sharp:You know, we've been talking up until this point mostly about residential work and, obviously, as you guys have grown and sort of evolved and started doing different size projects and collaborations and things like that. And I think with every studio that gets to that sort of point where it's more people, more years in the game, that kind of 7 to 12 year period where often practices start making that leap from residential to more public projects. I'm always sort of fascinated in how you cross that gap, which is quite a big jump because of the requirements and expectations. So I guess I come just interested in how going from that previous conversation to kind of moving forward into the more public stuff, like the things that we're talking about there, you found ways to maybe carry that over into some of the work that you're doing at the moment.
Tim O'Callaghan:Yeah. It's a really good question, and it's one that we're kind of
Nimi Attanayake:It's really apt at the moment, isn't it?
Tim O'Callaghan:Sitting and reflecting on. So around 2020, we so at the moment, like, at the moment though, we kind of had that self reflection. And one of the things about that self reflection was that we wanted to have a message that we believed could scale up. So this idea of kind of co creation and, kind of designing to reflect the people that are gonna use the buildings was something that we wanted to make sure would work at another scale.
Nimi Attanayake:So we also saw that there was a problem with bigger developments that they maybe lacked that element. Yeah.
Tim O'Callaghan:I think we felt like there's something for us to offer there, that we could bring that sense of accessibility and kind of playfulness and, with rigor to a different scale. And obviously, we'd we both worked on bigger projects and we're keen to have we're keen to work on things that had more of a public kind of face and the kind of, just, you know, accessible to more people and kind of affecting affecting more people. So we've always been aware of that. I mean, it is a huge challenge. What's been so from 2020, we won a we won a project to do a public realm, in Beckentree in Northeast London.
Tim O'Callaghan:And, we also won a couple of bids to to work alongside bigger practices, on larger kind of mixed use, and resi projects. And those have been really great as a kind of nurturing, platform for us to work to see how big the practices work, as well as to do some reasonably significant sort of sized, works.
Nimi Attanayake:And those are for sort of one's a community sort of commercial use building. The other is a kind of public realm space around a housing development, but it includes like a play area for kids and a kind of rain garden and sort of pavement treatment, and then we're sort of on another bigger bid, to do another building that's gonna be resi and and retail.
Tim O'Callaghan:So having it's been, a really useful platform to learn. I mean, you know, you realize quite quickly how much you've got to learn. Like, these big practices, you know, they're really good.
Nimi Attanayake:They're like a machine.
Dave Sharp:And they're so good, aren't they?
Nimi Attanayake:They're so good at what they do. It's crazy. And they're so quick. They're so quick. And I think that's what, it's been a really big shift because it operates on different timescales to the way that the residential work runs, and also we're less in control.
Nimi Attanayake:You know, we are beholden to deadlines set by bigger, you know, bigger developers or sort of bigger agreements in place. And I think one of the things that we did learn quite quickly that was to our benefit is that we were incredibly nimble because we're sort of working at a much faster pace on the residential stuff and we don't have any preconceptions because each project is sort of different, we're very nimble to kind of picking stuff up, we're very nimble to kind of working with small budgets or kind of talking to people about doing the community engagement and things, So I think we kind of use that to our advantage.
Tim O'Callaghan:And, actually but what but what's been interesting is that we've been able to transfer a lot of the things that we've been doing to that scale. So being able to create a narrative that people can buy into that comes from conversations or, work that we've been doing with future users has actually, created some quite, interesting and great outcomes. So for instance, on the project where we were doing a kind of community and commercial building, we did a workshop with some of the residents who really liked this kind of almost accidental roof garden that they had, which was kind of like an it's like an access way, way above some garages. But because we had the workshop and we kind of they told us, how much they liked it and used it for kind of parties and impromptu barbecues and things. We were then able to take that as a narrative to our team and then ultimately to the client if and say, look.
Tim O'Callaghan:You know, they this is a really important asset. And so we were able to advocate for a roof garden on top of the building that we were producing. On the other project, we kind of had a workshop for young adults and, yeah, specifically young girls who said that they don't have anywhere that they feel safe, that they can gather outside. So we were able to advocate for a meeting space on a corner of the of the plot, opposite the shops with benches. You wouldn't believe how difficult it is to get a bench built in London, and lighting for young people to gather, which is like and actually the sort of thing that normally gets shut down and torn out.
Nimi Attanayake:But- Because we'd had that engagement and we'd got it we had a clear narrative about where this was coming from, they couldn't they couldn't not deliver on it, really. So yeah, I think we're really enjoying the bigger work, but I think we've made a conscious decision to always have a mix of both and I think actually that's worked out really well for us because we're not tied to one client or one building typology. It means that we can have a mix and we can accommodate that within the practice.
Tim O'Callaghan:One thing that I would say Nimmi especially has done is set up an incredible kind of way of reaching out to the world. That means that we have an almost constant stream of inquiries for residential work. So we've Nuumi's got an amazing kind of Instagram account. We advertise kind of locally, and then kind of targeted local press. We do things like have design workshops in our office where people can drop in, and we'll do, like we do, like, an hour.
Tim O'Callaghan:It's a great way of just kinda getting ourselves out there. Yeah. And
Nimi Attanayake:we also do, like, open house and stuff like that. So people can come and see what we do.
Tim O'Callaghan:And that's sort of a sort of steady stream. But then with the larger work, it's a different dynamic. It's like it's all bid based. So you're having to put all this effort and work effort to winning winning it. You don't always win it.
Tim O'Callaghan:So kinda getting used to that different, way of working and, yeah.
Nimi Attanayake:The timescales, like, we can design and build with the resi in that at one and a half years to max, but the timescales for the bigger stuff is obviously much longer and trying to accommodate that in the practice is tricky.
Dave Sharp:Tricky, but also good to have that sort of longer, maybe more bedrock of, like, business through those projects that's there. Then you have the little ups and downs of residential, which can fluctuate and cycle so much, like, throughout the year, throughout the economy. Recently, I feel like practices that have just just had residential and that's all they do. They've been really exposed through COVID and through whatever.
Nimi Attanayake:I don't know. I'd say the opposite over here. The cost of, building materials have gone up massively. The cost of labor has gone up massively. Whereas and so the resi, we've got clients who are in, they're in a sort of between a rock and a hard place because the house isn't right.
Nimi Attanayake:They've just bought it or their kids are in it and they're just running out of space and they've got that desperation and they will spend the money, but developers or bigger projects can actually sit on it and say, hold on a minute, it's not economically viable for me to go ahead. And so for us, the consistency, the bread and butter has been the resi, and the stop start has actually been the bigger stuff.
Tim O'Callaghan:Interesting. It's always we've we've always approached resi not as not as a stepping stone, but as a as a a serious bit of architecture that we wanna deliver as well as we can. We don't perceive it as a stepping stone to something else. We wanna we've always wanted to try and do the most with it.
Nimi Attanayake:Because it is it is really important. You know, it's it's something a house is the most important building really because that's where you're gonna spend most of your time and it's what's gonna affect your mental health and everything else, so I think we, yeah, we we hold residential working really high on guard.
Dave Sharp:I just love the examples of when you were talking about picking up these client or these end user stories through your kind of community engagement. So I just love the connection to the residential work where it's kind of the briefing game or taking new forms and slightly different, but you're doing a similar thing. And I love the way you were saying these people have this need or they have this lifestyle or they have this sort of odd behavior or did this weird quirky thing. And then we took that, and then we advocated for it. I love the term advocating as well.
Dave Sharp:I think sometimes the value of these, like, really clear narratives, like, what is really the ultimate reason a a narrative is so powerful? I think it's because it has to go through so many people to end up in the real world, doesn't it? The idea, if it's not super clear and punchy and direct, it's just gonna get, like, watered down at every step, isn't it? I mean, where what's it gonna end up? What I was picking up from listening to you guys is that you were like, we just have this super clear idea.
Dave Sharp:We put we talk to everybody about it. We tell them the story. We tell them the reason, and then it's just sort of syncs in. It communicates it clearly, I guess. Am I sort of in the right direction there in terms of how you guys sort of see the role of that narrative kind of in these public projects?
Nimi Attanayake:Yeah. Yeah. I think we spend a lot of time with the public projects understanding, for example, the historical development, like how this place came to be. We spend a lot of time speaking to people, asking questions, listening and then creating a response to that. And I think that, yeah, I think that is really true, that we then have a clear, simple concept that's been built through that process and that needs to be delivered in order for it to be a success.
Tim O'Callaghan:It's been interesting, the project we're working on at the moment, which has been through quite a troubled kind of history, with the local community. And, it's been really interesting to kind of see what we can bring, and to try and apply some of those kind of lessons that we've learned before about narrative. Up to this point, I think, the community had been kind of kept at arm's length, and it's like, you know, they'll they'll consult them, you know, which is basically just telling them what they're they're gonna do.
Nimi Attanayake:Public consultation used to be, this is the boards of the finished product and that we're gonna consult you on it, but really how can you have a meaningful consultation if you know, you see these finished visuals of, like, these buildings and you're like, well, where do I even begin to unpick this?
Tim O'Callaghan:And also everyone, I think, historically has treated the community, and invert ecommerce, a bit like they're they're idiots, essentially. That they don't they're not gonna understand these big, ideas. They're not gonna understand the need to maximize profit on the site. And I guess what we've tried to do so far, and I think it's been I mean, so far been quite well received, is to sort of say, well, what's the historical background here? What's the, you know, what's what's informed the development of this place over time?
Tim O'Callaghan:And in in London, that's always incredibly rich. You know, there's it's been through being a market garden, being being a a kind of hamlet at a village, and then suddenly it's like a
Nimi Attanayake:Victorian Victorian.
Tim O'Callaghan:A Victorian metropolis, and then it's got bomb damage, and then it's got kind of 20th century Blocks. Crappy urban infill like kind of, shopping centers and things like that. So instead of ignoring that, it's like, actually, let's tell the story. Like, how are we gonna like, what? Because people are really interested in that sort of stuff.
Tim O'Callaghan:Like, it's it's super interesting. And if you rather than sort of saying, like, we're gonna tell you about this stuff because we think that's the stuff that you're interested in, it's actually like building a narrative that everyone can kind of embrace and and that and then using that to, inform what we do as and and we're part of a bigger team. So, you know, it's something we're all kind of, doing together. The feedback so far is that the, it's completely you know, it's a very different experience for the community there. They feel much more, aware of the process.
Tim O'Callaghan:They feel much more listened to. So it's really positive, and it's kind of positive for us that actually the the kind of that that kind of ethos that we try to build into everything we do and that we've learned.
Nimi Attanayake:It's being received really well. And it's also acting as a kind of reset for this project that has come from kind of a bit of a troubled background, but that it's being received well by the community, but also by the local authority who will all be approving it. And, you know, the clients are then therefore really pleased as well because they're seeing it as a success that everyone's pleased about it. So, yeah, we're really seeing the kind of fruits from our, like, work on that one.
Dave Sharp:It's cool that you can, you know, start off as a residential practice that probably more than anything, you know, the projects and the work that you did was really, as you guys were pointing out earlier, like, really, like, embraced by the general public as much as the architecture audience, and that that then becomes a really key ingredient to public work. Like, the success of a public project is, like, it's embraced by the the public and not just, you know, the client or whatever or the people directly involved with the project or other architects. So I think, you know, you guys are saying you're reflecting on that things that have carried over between the scales at the moment. Well, from my vantage point, it's, like, carrying over really nicely so far.
Nimi Attanayake:You know, to say to that, I think we've actually resonated more with the public than we have with the architectural peers. I think a lot of our work speaks to public. I guess there's more, you know, there's more public than there are architectural peers, but I think, you know, our work's been published in places that the public will see it and it's been pretty massive. And I think also we understand the need, you know, the need that we serve the public, and I think sometimes architecture practices, you know, we've spoken to the bigger guys and they're like, we haven't updated our website in 3 years. And we understand that we can't be like that.
Nimi Attanayake:We can't sit on our reputation, we have to make it. And in order to make it, actually, we're gonna appeal to the public and we're going to constantly get, let them in on the process, see what's happening, and I think that's also something that's changing with time. I think a lot of older practices have the idea that, you know, they don't need to kind of maybe reach out on Instagram as much. And we kind of recognize the value in actually speaking to people. And you're right, and then actually we can that that is transferrable because these projects need to speak to the general public.
Dave Sharp:You mentioned a couple of things there that you sound that have been quite successful for you on the residential front over time, and it sounded like it was quite event driven and quite hospitality oriented in a way. It's like opening up our office for workshops, opening up our projects and inviting the public. It doesn't seem like your strategy is reliant on going through just our way of reaching the public is or something like that. You know, you're kind of just going, let's go directly to them. Let's have events.
Dave Sharp:Let's be welcoming. It it is that sort of the general gist of the approach? As much as it is the the the more traditional stuff, the media, I am actually interested in touching a little bit on your Instagram just really briefly. But just in general, maybe talk me through it a little bit.
Nimi Attanayake:I think it's been a bit of a blanket approach. I think we've always recognized that we don't know where the work is gonna come from and we're continuously surprised by the way the work does come, you know, how it comes and it is from a variety of different ways and so I think we're open to everything and because you don't know what's gonna be easier for some people and not for, to try and appeal to the general public is, they're a huge population. So, yeah, so we have, we do events. Yeah, like we mentioned, we have open house where we have a couple of our projects open for public. We do, yeah, the design studio is open for design surgeries.
Nimi Attanayake:We are, you know, we have, we're featured in books, we're featured in magazines. We have a kind of a pretty, a pretty good process, a bit similar to how we approach projects but we've also got another process for how we market the project. So we will always create a kind of narrative, which is easier to do because it's embedded really. So, we kind of just put that into a kind of document and we have a kind of we try and get most of our projects photographed and we then sort of decide, well actually where do we think that's going to be best placed? Like, is it more interiors?
Nimi Attanayake:Is it more design? Is it more architectural press? And then we literally sort of go through and we kind of issue it out and it's, we've always been really lucky that it's been well received and the other thing that amazes us is the longevity. You know, like projects that were completed 5 years ago are still being asked about, you know, can we get it for this magazine? And so it's just a, it's always going in the background.
Nimi Attanayake:It's something that's kind of whirring along, but it is an incredible amount of work. It's really, really important work, but it is a lot of time.
Tim O'Callaghan:Yeah. I mean, like, Sarah and Nimmy put Sarah's our office manager, put together they've got we've got a list of journalists that we've kind of, worked with before.
Nimi Attanayake:Like a press pack. Yeah.
Tim O'Callaghan:Yeah. And and each each project will kind of decide where we think it's gonna be, where we want it to go, where we think it's likely to be well received. Is it is it more of a sort of grand designs type of project, or is it more of a, design? There's also the awards like Don't Move Improve has been a really big platform for us. I think we've had like 8 we've had like 5 put 5 or 6 products shortlisted, 10 longlisted.
Tim O'Callaghan:You know, it's always been a really great, platform as well. And yeah. I think it's like whenever we ask people, where have you heard? Where have you where how did you find out about us? Or what what you know, how did you get in touch?
Tim O'Callaghan:It's normally more than one thing. It's like we saw we follow your Instagram and we saw you in a local in a kind of local magazine, advert, and we saw you on Dine. And so all those things combined kind of lead them to contact us. So,
Nimi Attanayake:and I think that, sort of Tim was kind of alluding to, sort of us wanting to help even smaller jobs, so where they may not have the big budget, but they understand the value of creativity and they understand the value of design, good design. And because I think sometimes practices can almost shut the door before it's been, you know, a conversation's been even begun and actually a lot of those projects, they can come with a small budget, but then maybe they find other means to bring more money to it and they're like, actually, we see the value, let's go all the way, or they might come back a year later or 2 years later and say, okay, we didn't have the money then, but we had a chat. We think you've got, like, potential. Let's go for it. And so I think because we're really approachable and open and also have, like, a really, you know, a simple dialogue, people have a kind of connection with us and then they're not afraid to kind of come back or sort of make it work or just use us just for like the ideas, you know, we're happy to do it, we're not precious about us as designers, and ultimately, we wanna we feel that everyone is entitled to good design, and so everyone should be given that opportunity.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. And I'm guessing that you've sort of found a way to structure your fees in a way that it isn't reliant on you only working on projects in excess of £700,000 or something. It's not just a purely percentage based fee fee structure. You've you've found a way to make it work for smaller budgets if, as you said, the client is willing to have a larger proportion of their overall budget go towards your your fees.
Tim O'Callaghan:Yeah. Exactly. And I think I mean, the other thing is, as we were saying, it's a bit of it's quite a bit of our time, but we we kind of we'll do it. We'll do a call, an hour long call with almost everyone who come. Even if they've got a really small budget, we'll still quite often will do the call for an hour and say, look, you know, I mean, it used to be, we used to go to people's houses pre COVID, but,
Nimi Attanayake:A lot of the clients don't even know the process. So part of that hour call is just explaining, you know, they sort of, yeah, there's a lot to it to get something built and sometimes people just think, well, I'll be in in 6 months. Right? And you're like, well, hold on. There are all these kind of statutory kind of processes that we need to do in order to get you there.
Tim O'Callaghan:But a number of times we've had someone come back to us, like, 4 years later with when they've kind of maybe, raised a bit more money for the project or recommended us to offend because we've, like, given that time. I mean, there are obviously some examples where we kind of like, no. This project probably isn't for us. We're not gonna we we haven't got time for call or, you know, maybe another architect might be a bit better. But in general, we'll have a chat and, yeah, I think that's in a sense, that's the, that's the equivalent to the bidding that we do, which would take days for the bigger projects.
Tim O'Callaghan:So I think it's been it's just something, yeah, that I think we we we we're happy to do, and it does come back to you some way.
Dave Sharp:Thank you so much, guys. It was, it was really great speaking to you and thank you for coming on the podcast.
Nimi Attanayake:Thanks for having us. Yeah.
Tim O'Callaghan:It's been a pleasure. It's been, it's been good to
Nimi Attanayake:rest a lot.
Tim O'Callaghan:Yeah. Good to reflect. Good to talk about it. Yeah.
Dave Sharp:That was my conversation with Nimmy and Tim from NimTim Architects. If you'd like to learn more about their studio, you can visit nimtim.co.uk or follow them on Instagram at nimtim architects. Office Talk is hosted by Dave Sharp of Office Dave Sharp, a strategic marketing and brand definition practice for architecture. Our practice works collaboratively with clients across the globe. To learn more about our process and book a consultation to discuss your practice, simply visit officedavesharpe.com.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode of office talk was edited and produced by Anthony Richardson of Simple Dwelling Studio.
