Office S&M
Welcome to Office Talk, a fortnightly podcast featuring in-depth conversations with leading architects about their approach to business marketing and communications. I'm your host, Dave Sharp, an architectural marketing expert and director of Office Dave Sharp, a marketing practice offering specialized consultancy, marketing, and PR services tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Visit office dave sharp.com to learn more or follow the practice on Instagram at officedavesharp. Joining me on the show today are Hugh McEwan and Katrina Stewart, the directors of Office S&M, a London based practice known for their inventive and experimental approach to materials and color. In this episode, Hugh, Katrina, and I discussed their commitment to having a 5050 split between private and public work, and how this declaration helps them to differentiate themselves from other similar sized practice.
Dave Sharp:We spoke about how having a diverse range of collaborators on your team when pitching for public projects, such as a chef or photographer from the local community can be very helpful in in their work, but something deeply embedded in the early stages of their design process as a way to increase client and community engagement. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Hugh and Katrina from Office S&M. Hugh and Katrina, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Hugh McEwen:Thanks for having us today.
Dave Sharp:No problem. How about we start off with just a little bit of a background office s and m. How did you guys start the practice and what sort of practice do you guys run today?
Catrina Stewart:Yeah. So we set up, back in 2013. So we've just kind of come to our 10 year anniversary, recently. We met at university in our final year, of masters, where we were in a kind of studio, working together, and we found that we had a lot of kind of interests, in in common. And, yeah, we so we set up about 10 years ago, and over the years, we've we work with a 5050 split between, public work, and working with public clients and, private clients, working on kind of public realm, community spaces, high streets on the kind of public side and then on the private side working in kind of small scale kind of housing, and, workspaces, kind of retail projects.
Dave Sharp:The 5050 split, that's something that's kind of declared quite confidently on the website, and it's something that is quite upfront, quite explicit about. When did you guys first get this 5050 concept? When did that develop? Was that pretty early on in the practice, or was it something that sort of kind of evolved over the years?
Hugh McEwen:It's something that we've done right since the start of the practice. I mean, it's why it's basically it's why we set up. I mean, we we, we actually so our our very first project was a public commission from Waltham Forest Council, back in 2012. And there, we we, sort of won this mini competition to do one shop front, on a high street, kind of in the run up to the Olympics. And, we we, you know, we worked on that.
Hugh McEwen:We did did that. You can still see it on our website. And then, in 2013, we won another public project for 3 shop fronts. And then a few years later, won a project for 25 shops. And so we we always kinda had that had that kind of public side to the to the practice.
Hugh McEwen:And and, in fact, that's why we had to set it up. You know, in 2013, we had to make a company to be able to do the public project for 3 shop fronts. And so that led to the formation, you know, the first kind of, you know, job on the books for for Office S&M. So so that's where we always really been, yeah, that's been kind of why we established the practice and what we've done, sort of ever since then for the last 10 years. But I think then in that in that time, we've also then started to do more private work more you know, almost kinda more recently than that.
Hugh McEwen:And so started to do, you know, residential extensions and and new build houses and housing, and sort of built that side of work up. And I think what we found about sort of, let's say, sort of 3, 4 years ago was maybe that we were better known probably for our private work than we were for our public work. And, you know, that that's kind of fine. But I think for the fact that we've been doing it for so long and it's such an intrinsic part of the and we're so proud of it, it felt as though that kind of wasn't almost getting the kind of airtime that it deserved and that we were maybe being slightly pigeonholed within, an idea of kind of, you know, residential architecture. And so, we did a course at the, at the British Library, which was about, kinda intellectual property, but as basically a way of kind of understanding almost sort of what your USP was.
Hugh McEwen:We knew another architect that had recently done that, somebody called Jankertime, who sort of does a lot of public work and and sort of found that that was a really useful process to kind of articulate, their practice. And so we then we then did that course, and that sort of led to this this kind of this conversation about 5050 coming up and and helped us to sort of articulate that. And we were also working with, with Ryan Willard from Business of Architecture. And, you know, that that kind of process of sort of, you know, verbalizing some of those things then then became quite sort of you know, was becoming more tangible. And we then decided to finally kind of, revamp our website, and that became the opportunity to really kind of put that 5050 message kind of front and center.
Dave Sharp:Why do you think that that's beneficial? Do you do you feel like it does sort of serve as a USP and it kind of resonates and sets you apart from the other practices that are trying to get similar kinds of work? What do you feel is, like, the main advantage of having such, like, clear kind of segmentation front and center?
Catrina Stewart:I think this has taken us, yeah, a bit of time, I suppose, to, to articulate and and to kind of, yeah, kind of explain, why, yeah, why these why these things kind of are useful or why working, you know, with public clients is useful for, private clients and and vice versa. And I think I think there's several reasons. I think, you know, when we're working with private, you you know, kind of small scale developers, for example, you know, they they have various things that they are kind of concerned about along the process. One of the key risks is is planning and, the fact that, you know, often they feel like they don't understand planning, because there's, you know, sometimes seen as being subjective and, and that, I suppose, carries quite a lot of risk. And our kind of experience working with public clients and also, being on, several kind of design review panels across kind of, London means that we also kind of understand a little bit more about what it's like to be on the other side and maybe understand a bit more about what, what, yeah, what the kind of borrowers or the councils might be looking for in that respect.
Catrina Stewart:So I suppose that's where it's kind of helpful for, the private clients. And for the public clients, you know, there's, one of the things that they are also kind of concerned about is is budgets and, you know, making sure that, the projects are kind of delivered to budget. And obviously our experience working with, you know, small scale kind of developers and, you know, working on kind of, built work on that side means that we really understand budget. You know, it's something that is obviously really kind of important. And also being able to deliver, I suppose, character and kind of that generosity on a budget is something that is, you know, is quite challenging, but I think, something that, you know, both, public clients and private clients, really value.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. I like that you've really focused on, like, the transferable things that actually matter when you're in that client's shoes, you know, like, that it really matters to them. I have this conversation with architects. Like, typically, it's about how do they move from private residential into into public or into developers or whatever. And they tend to focus on the things that they sort of value the most.
Dave Sharp:So they'll sort of say, like, well, we do these, like, really nice houses for people. So, like, nice for people is kind of, like, our thing, and that should transfer everywhere. Right? Like, everybody cares about nice spaces for people. And it's like, yeah, but it's not necessarily the top priority issue that is gonna be cared about across every sector just because it is an important thing.
Dave Sharp:So I think, like, what you're bringing up there in terms of risk and cost and planning and generosity on a budget, a few of these things, That absolutely makes sense because I I don't think those are traditionally, like, the architect's top priorities, but you're sort of saying, well, we're actually kind of putting the client in mind here. That's a great way to deal with the issue. Right?
Hugh McEwen:It is it's also a way of almost I think we we we we do differentiate ourselves from other small practices in that way a little bit. I think I think sort of, like like you say, kind of quite often, practices sort of start in in one vein and then looking to almost diversify. And I think sort of, we're we're keen to articulate that we've kind of we've we've done that and and that there are benefits of that knowledge sharing kind of within the practice and between kind of client groups. What I think is then slightly I don't know. It's something we're then trying to kind of understand is that sort of once you get once you work at a slightly larger scale, that's almost kind of just implicit within the operation of a business.
Hugh McEwen:So, you know, once once you get to a larger scale, everyone works with a 5050 split of public and private clients. So I think there's something about also, you know, the scale at which we work that that that articulation kinda works well. And then, you know, as you go beyond that, you probably have, you know, that that that, you know, that potentially that part of the narrative will also need to kind of move on. And I think that's what we're we're kind of also, you know, ourselves working on is kind of that that articulation of what is the benefit of the bringing together of those two strands of the practice, and how do those things kind of work together. So, yeah, I think it's always it's kind of you know, it's also going to always be work in progress.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode of Office Talk is sponsored by Office Dave Sharp. Founded by architecture marketing specialist, Dave Sharp, Office Dave Sharp collaborates exclusively with local and international architectural practices to help them refine their marketing, distill their message, and elevate their brand. Our strategies and solutions provide expert perspective and clarity in the short term, while our process allows you the space to reflect on your goals for your practice in the long term. So consider this your chance to pause, to strike the perfect balance between your business objectives and the integrity of your brand. With a highly structured strategy and positioning process, ongoing guidance, and access to our network of talented and skilled creatives, we'll help to position your practice in a way that's considered, distinctive, and timeless.
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Hugh McEwen:davesharp.com.
Dave Sharp:So what you're saying is that when you were working on smaller projects, smaller scopes and briefs and budgets and things like that, that probably wouldn't have been attractive to a larger architecture practice or a super diversified kind of, like, large practice with lots of people. You were kind of being considered against or alongside some other small practices who typically do maybe a poor job of, like, really managing that balance of different project types, and that you were able to kind of be like, you know what? We're actually, like, leaning into this and discussing this and thinking this through and developing a narrative around this, and that's awesome. It's setting us apart. But then once we're up against practices that have all also figured that out, all the bigger ones, then then does the magic trick kind of, like, wear off a little bit at that scale?
Dave Sharp:Is that what you're thinking?
Hugh McEwen:I think that's what we've got to kind of work out. You know? But it it you know? And, inevitably, that's part of kind of you know, if something works, then you move into having different discussions, don't you? It's not like you kind of say, oh, we've magically fixed it, and this is the final kind of answer.
Hugh McEwen:Inevitably, kind of things things sort of change. But, yeah, you know, we're now in competition with with people that we are in awe of. You know? We we do we regularly do, you know, public tenders, and we are we are up against, you know, yeah, people that we regard as the best of the best. And so it you're you're then, you know, putting yourself kind of, you know, alongside those practices and kind of wanting to, you know, move your own conversations forward.
Hugh McEwen:So, it feels good, but then it sort of makes you you know, you also have to be on your a game and and kind of moving that forward as well.
Dave Sharp:Any early idea of, like, how we can beat all these awesome practices in terms of positioning? Any any thoughts? Like, I think you actually gave a little bit of a teaser. It was kind of something about bringing the sort of things together. We were splitting things apart, but now it's like we kind of need to unify them somehow and then make sense of them in some particular way.
Dave Sharp:Am I, like, onto the direction that you're thinking?
Catrina Stewart:Yeah. I mean, I I think it's definitely something that, yeah, we're kind of, yeah, trying to articulate more and more, you know, how how the 2 are kind of feeding off each other and how they inform each other and how they how, yeah, how they benefit, one another, I suppose. And, yeah, I think we've had a lot of kind of practice in in submitting for various competitions, and some we've won, some we haven't.
Hugh McEwen:We're not we're not gonna give you all of our secrets, Dave. Oh, no.
Dave Sharp:Communication style is part of your secret toolkit of ways to, like, do this. Since we're having a conversation where I'm trying to, like, extract as much information from you guys as possible about how you win these awesome public projects. You mentioned kind of the the process of putting in submissions and bids and tenders and all this sort of stuff. Do you have any killer tips? Any anything that you found picked up at all that is kind of, like, helped you be more successful in that area?
Dave Sharp:That's a superpower I would love to have is, like, how do you go through that process and sort of improve your odds of that type of work?
Catrina Stewart:Some killer tips. I so I suppose we often bid, in the kind of London area. And, you know, even within London, you know, communities change so much and the places change so much, you know, within even within the kind of same borough. And so part of it is just really understanding that place and and really getting into the kind of under the skin of the place and just doing doing a lot of research, and not just, assuming, that that, you know, the needs of that community are the same as, you know, just just a few high streets down the road. So I think, one thing is really doing doing your research.
Catrina Stewart:The other thing is that with any kind of public project, you tend to have, you know, lots and lots of clients. You've got the counsel who's, you know, our client, but also you've got the people that you're kind of designing for. So let's say, I mean, we worked on a project in Finsbury Park, where we were working on, you know, with several kind of businesses along the high street. And we realized that each shop had 3 owners and different, you know, 3 different owners. So, suddenly, you have like hundreds of clients, hundreds of people that you're kind of talking to and you need to kind of, I suppose, kind of get collect as much kind of feedback from them as possible.
Catrina Stewart:But also you need to be able to kind of translate that into a design, that is really kind of personal to that area and, fulfills the needs of of that area. So I think one of the things is really kind of and and we, you know, use various techniques, around kind of codesign workshops. You know, for many years now, we've, kind of, refined that process to see how we can get the best out of people and how we can, I suppose tailor that, engagement process to that particular area and to the to the people within that community? And I think explaining that and kind of articulating that in a bid is really, really important to kinda tailor the engagement the engagement, kind of process. And the other thing that we, you know, we do with all of our projects is, we use tools, such as kind of community wealth building, for example, to deliver so social value in in a place.
Catrina Stewart:And that's really looking at, kind of reinvesting the money from the project into the local community. And that's all you know, everything from making sure that you buy the food for the event, from a local restaurant, or, you know, seeing whether there's materials in the area, that you can purchase for the building of, of, you know, whatever whatever we're building, using local consultants or local, kind of services, a surveyor, who is local, and and just really thinking about every stage of the project and how that, you know, that money is best used to actually reinvest within the kind of local community.
Dave Sharp:That's so interesting. This shows how much I'm, like, learning about this area from you guys. Because when I I when you're first, like, describing it, Katrina, I was, like, feeling confused. I was like, but what is this, like, for a competition, or you're are you doing the design? But then it all clicked for me when you were saying, we talk about the things.
Dave Sharp:Like, we talk about these elements of our process, these additional sort of research steps and co design and this reinvestment approach. And it's like we walk them through all these sort of quite distinctive sort of ways that how how do you even describe it? Like, I guess it's just process, but it's like the stuff that is separate to the traditional architectural design stages. Right? And so you really sort of emphasize that stuff, and that ends up becoming, I'm guessing, really aligning with their goals for their project.
Dave Sharp:Right?
Catrina Stewart:Yeah. Exactly. And it's really understanding what the problem is as well. So, you know, when when we read these kind of, you know, often very, very long briefs, it's just understanding what is you know, fundamentally, what is the problem that they want to kind of address and what, you know, what are the things that this project needs to deliver in order to resolve, you know, solve those problems.
Dave Sharp:Do you generally find that those couple of areas you spoke about sort of the financial aspect with the local community and then this engagement with this web of sort of stakeholders. Do you find that those are typically 2 sort of angles of approach that you would generally bring to most projects? Or is it gonna be one of those things where you have quite a range of sort of possibilities, and then you'll sort of pick and choose depending on the situation and depending on the project?
Hugh McEwen:I'd say they I'd say they are key areas that we bring to bring to every project, but it it's as Katrina's saying, it's it's kinda tailoring those, and how they can be delivered and how they can be kind of deployed, you know, in in sort of different in different ways. And, yeah, it it's really kind of understanding that problem and looking at kinda how can you then, you know, use things to to or use processes to to answer those issues. I I think, yeah, community wealth building is incredibly important. It's adopted by some local authorities. It's not a policy in others.
Hugh McEwen:But by bringing that kinda to the table and understanding kinda how we've delivered that in other boroughs, you can sort of almost, like, lead offices through that. Because I think I think sort of, you know, one of one of the things that we sometimes find is that, you know, may maybe, public clients haven't done that project before, but we have. And so we're bringing an understood process of kinda how we've done that previously to to that client to help them realize what what they're aiming for. And and so, having having that experience of kind of deliver delivering delivering those things, you also then want to tailor that tailor that and adapt that and kind of move that move that forwards as well. And as Katrina said, you know, it's always gonna be different because you're going to be working in a different area, and those stakeholders and those groups and what's appropriate is is going to be different.
Hugh McEwen:And the ways that you might answer particular things may be particularly focused on on, you know, on young people or or or particular groups or particular locations. So so each time, it is it's got to be different. But by having that kind of robustness, you know, in a process, you're able to kinda tailor it. You know? One of the things that we love to do is collaborate.
Hugh McEwen:You know? We've worked with kind of 15 architectural other architectural practices sort of over the last 10 years or so, And, that is an amazing way of kind of, you know, bringing different approaches together and tailoring something, tailoring a team to the client and to the problem. And I think but that almost requires a really clear process and a really clear, you know, way of delivering that, probably clearer than if it was just one practice on on its own because the client's always going to be slightly concerned about, well, am I getting best value for money? Am I going to end up with kind of duplication of services? Who's gonna be responsible for x, y, or z?
Hugh McEwen:And so we then again become, you know, very good at building those processes. And we collaborate both with larger practices, and we collaborate with smaller practices. We're bringing on younger emerging architects into teams with ourselves, because we've always we've always really valued that input, and and, you know, seen seen the benefit of that. And and and we know that that can then deliver something really unique, you know, for for a client. So, yeah, it's it's really sort of looking at looking at all those different aspects, which, yes, I'd I'd say we kinda have built up specific approaches to, but it's really you know, it's it's this kind of mixing desk of kind of what things go up, what things go down so that you're starting to really answer you know, you're you're you're kind of adjusting those things.
Dave Sharp:We've got this set of processes that we've developed over time. These, like, module it feels like a modular sort of system in a way. Like, it's like a little bit of that consultation workshop and steps and survey and what like, I'm just trying to, imagine the the elements involved in it, and it's like we've done that on 2 different projects. We could bring that to bear on this one, but this one maybe involves a bit more of this sort of community something something. And it's like you're kind of picking and choosing based on what's appropriate.
Dave Sharp:But what I'm always interested in is practices that work well in the public space. I always feel like they develop these kind of proprietary recipes in their kind of recipe book, whether it's a specific type of sort of workshopping process that they've developed or something they develop these kind of, like, quite unique, quite proprietary sort of ways, and then each practice offers sort of slightly different approaches. But I think it's kind of interesting because you are really then offering something different to a client.
Hugh McEwen:You know, we've we've had 2 competitions recently where the the client has told us that we're the only person that's offered the particular process that we've set out in our tender documents. It puts you in a league of your own, you know, that you you know, and we we we you know, rather than feeling as though we're kind of outliers in that, we feel that we've really understood what they what they need and what what what that, you know, what that that client, what that community kind of will actually benefit from. And and, hopefully, we're kind of able to articulate that. So, you know, I I I think I think, yeah, it it it's, like you say, it is sort of almost proprietary, but it but it, you know, it kind of it it it really it, yeah, it's it's really turning into something that's that's that's unique and and will really help.
Dave Sharp:When you're deciding which knobs to slide up and down, like, more of this, less of that kind of, as you're putting together, you're proposing the structure of how you would go through the process if you were to win the project. You mentioned, Katrina, that you like to do as much research as you can, I I'm assuming, before putting together, before pitching because it helps you to gauge, you know, where you should make those adjustments? What do you really have to work off at that point where you're putting together a a submission?
Catrina Stewart:I think it's usually something that you can gauge from the brief itself. So often, they'll set out, you know, what what the brief is, but also what what are the problems in the area that they're looking to kind of, resolve, I suppose. And I think I think it's starting from there just really kind of understanding what the problems are, and, you know, delving deeper into the kind of, you know, in into kind of research in into the area. But I think often we, you know, and this is something that, you know, people often talk about, you know, hard to reach groups, groups of people who may not traditionally kind of engage with the with kind of the process, I suppose, of, you know, working with councils or kind of designing public space. And we often, contact, you know, existing networks, charities, youth spaces.
Catrina Stewart:And I suppose the first thing, yeah, that we do is is to really kind of look at people who are in the area, groups are in the area, who have, you know, you know, established long lasting networks within that area who really kind of understand, the place, in order to, I suppose, hear and and, you know, listen to what they have to say and and their kind of stories, their kind of memories, but also, you know, the the issues that they find with, with that particular area. And I think that's possibly the the the kind of, I suppose the the quickest way for us to, you know, understand, a place or get a bit more of an understanding of a place. But, obviously, you know, until you actually kind of start the project, you know, there's there's only so much that you can do.
Dave Sharp:It gives you maybe a little bit more context and background so that you can then think about, okay. I think we might need to do this, this, and this as part of this. The analogy for me in my in my process, that stage of, like, research and information gathering is that kind of diagnosis stage where you're actually just trying to do research, collect things, try and know as much as you possibly can before you start making decisions. There's that stage that is is sort of has many different aspects for for you guys. And and I feel like something I get from people I speak to on the podcast and clients that are doing the public work is that so much of the emphasis is on how do you collect that information, or how do you work with that community and make sure that everybody is kind of understood and included and heard from.
Dave Sharp:Like, does does that feel like it's becoming, like, probably one of the most important skills? I mean, it's probably quite obvious, I suppose, that or that important that it should be, but, but is that is that something that you you think that the client side is prioritizing?
Catrina Stewart:I I would typically also bring these groups into often bring them into the bid process as well. I think, I mean, one of the things that, you know, we can't do is we can't, presume that we understand a place, just because we've done a little bit of research and, you know, particularly at the kind of at the start of a project. We won't understand the place in the same way as someone who lives there, you know, who is there day in and day out. So I think, you know, often, you know, getting in touch with these existing organizations, charities, youth spaces, and, and community groups, and bringing them on board, as part of the bid is, often a a kind of useful way of, you know, making sure that people who are part of the team actually really, really know the place and really understand the place. But, also, again, that's part of kind of reinvesting money from the project into into these groups.
Catrina Stewart:And I think it also helps to kind of allow us to stand out in a way, when when we're bidding.
Dave Sharp:You're giving away so much good information. Right? In the situations that you're working in, you mentioned, you know, sometimes sometimes partnering with larger practices, sometimes bringing smaller practices in as a partnership, whether it's that skill combination or that process combination partnering with, like, local organizations and charities and people. Do you just have really do you find in the projects that you're working on, you've got pretty much complete discretion to kind of put together a team of your choosing? Like, do you find that it's always open as long as the project's of a appropriate size or whatever, is it always just, like, open for you to kind of assemble a team that you that you sort of feel is appropriate for the project?
Hugh McEwen:Yeah. I think most of the time due to because we are going in, you know, we're going in at a competitive stage, we we can sort of make things up. You know? We can invent sort of how we would approach something ideally. And I think I think that is really exciting kind of, you know, that that sort of, yeah, that freedom to kind of answer problems that you that you sort of see or that are being articulated.
Hugh McEwen:At the same time, it is quite difficult because you're not actually you've never actually had a conversation with the client. So you're sort of in some way having to, having to try and understand their problems without them. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.
Hugh McEwen:Exactly. And try and get, yeah, try and get what's in their head into yours, and then come up with a way of sort of answering those problems and then articulate that clearly in a team and within the the tender documentation they've got to return, etcetera. So it's it's slightly tricky, you know, because you're you're always slightly distanced from that. But, you know, that does also that gives you this ability to sort of go, okay. In an ideal world, how would we approach this problem?
Hugh McEwen:And and then you can kinda put together the perfect kind of team for that. And I think, you know, it's more and more kind of being embedded in those areas and, you know, developing those those tools and those tactics and working working again and again in those in those sort of types of spaces that that that sort of helps us build up that kind of better and better understanding of kinda how do we how do we work on high streets? How do these these you know, how do we work in markets? How can kind of these different sorts of spaces, you know, be developed?
Dave Sharp:In developing those kind of tools and tactics or processes, I mean, has that just been kind of a self taught through experience and projects kind of thing, or are there I imagine that there must be plenty of organizations that would help various kinds of organizations to kind of learn to work with communities. And I just wonder, like, is there anywhere that you've been able to go to to, like, sort of hone your skills in that area outside of your projects?
Catrina Stewart:I would say there's, 2 things. 1, is that we I think we taught for 7 or 8 years, and I think that has, we were working, Foxwood Books University and then, during the later years, at the Bartlett UCL. And, you know, working with students and, we were running a kind of design studio, You kind of understand a little bit more about, you know, how how do you get the best out of people? How do you how do you talk about design? How do you, yeah, kind of refine, I suppose, how the language around kind of design as well?
Catrina Stewart:So I think that was one thing that we found really, really useful, in actually kind of, you know, refining the way that we talk about design and and talk with, with people. And the other thing is that, you know, even from our very early projects we worked with, on, you know, high streets, we were working with, larger practices. So as Hugh mentioned earlier, we worked, on a project where we were doing one shop, on a larger kind of high street project that was run by Yanketine Architects. And that was, amazing in so many ways because it was the first project that we actually kind of delivered, 1st physical project that we built. But we also learned so much from Yanketine.
Catrina Stewart:You know, during that process, we we could, you know, see how you might approach a high street, how you might deliver a kind of project on a on a wider high street. And that meant that it give us it gave us the kind of knowledge and the confidence to then take on 3 shops a few years later. So and then from there, you know, whole high street. So I think working with kind of, slightly, larger practices is also a really good way of kind of learning tips, you know, from a slight distance before you actually kind of take on the project yourself.
Dave Sharp:I'm always interested in the partnerships for these sorts of projects, where that overlap is or why there is that complementary so, like, how does a small practice complement a large practice? And I'm just interested in your perspective on that in terms of maybe in that situation or in others or where the roles have been reversed and you've been identifying smaller practices or new sort of fledgling practices to join on your projects. Like, where do you guys see that complementary gap crossover thing happening? Like, how does that work?
Hugh McEwen:It's re it's really understanding kind of each other's sort of strengths and seeing kinda how those how those can kind of come together. I think we you know, architecture is a is a is a sort of, you know, as a profession, you you you kind of all have a certain degree of understanding of kinda how each other works. And so there is a bit a bit of a structure there and, you know, there there are connections and and sort of networks. And and so, you know, it it's, it it's sort of looking looking at kind of, how do you how do you kind of, yeah, reach out broadly and and sort of then find find those people who are kind of just right in that situation. So, you know, it's sometimes it's to do with kind of particular sort of specialisms on a project, or it's to do with particular pieces of work that might need to be done, in in in, you know, either in the process or in the outcome of of a of a kind of piece of work.
Hugh McEwen:And so it's really looking at kind of how you can almost kinda tailor parts of that process to those practices as well. I think sort of when, yeah, when we're working with smaller practices, it's very much about kind of, you know, providing the you know, we do the boring stuff. We do the kind of project management and the sort of, you know, the the kind of admin of things. And then we're we're reaching out to them to provide, you know, new ideas, you know, sort of, kind of being able to sort of articulate things in a different way and and sort of sort of looking at what what those sort of opportunities are, where we can kind of, you know, be the slightly, you know, the sort of, the safer pair of hands for the client. That's the that's the thing where you know that they maybe haven't been in that position before and that there are, you know, pitfalls.
Hugh McEwen:And, you know, I I would much rather, you know, sort of do do that and and sort of offer that sort of safety net so that next time you know, as Katrina said, we've appreciated that in the past. You know? And and so it's sort of that it's it's kind of that paying it forward thing. You know? And and then, yeah, you know, with larger practices, we can really complement them with, you know, a specialism on having worked on 20 high streets or, you know, sitting on a number of designer view panels in different boroughs or, you know, those sort of those those angles where we maybe have, you know, a really embedded, you know, you know, focus in a particular area, and and we can then really complement complement that team.
Hugh McEwen:And, you know, seeing how we can be, you know, as you say, those bright young things maybe to a kind of, you know, a sort of older generation of practice. And, yeah, I think it's sort of seeing how how there are kind of complementary skills, you know, that can be kind of brought to the brought to the table While we might, you know, bring maybe more of a focus on engagement, there might be somebody else who then has more of a heritage focus. And so it's seeing how how those two things can kind of work together, to really answer that answer that kind of brief. So, yeah, I think there's a, yeah, really wide range of of of thinking. And I think there is, you know, there's there's more sort of there there are there are, you know, exterior things that are kinda coming into that as well.
Hugh McEwen:You know, I think we're seeing, things like public practice where architects are being put into local authorities as being, you know, sort of driving that idea of process and and and and design sort of through the process as being kind of really important and then also being a knowledge sharing sort of environment. I think, Arkeo and Rob finds, Guerrilla tactics, which is it's called stop, collaborate, and listen, really about kind of seeing how there could be that that that sort of coming together of people, of of different practices and different approaches, and also their recent book, you know, sort of looking at looking at codesign processes. I think I think there are there are other sort of learning tools. I mean, you just did a talk last week for UDL, which is TFL's kind of, sort of educational arm to to local authorities to kind of upscale them in terms of kind of what should they look for in terms of codesign on high streets. So there there are all these ways in which, I suppose, both through the process of delivering these projects, we're trying to disseminate knowledge.
Hugh McEwen:And then also through, you know, through exterior things, we're trying to kind of bring bring that knowledge in as well. So it's a sort of two way two way process. That's it.
Dave Sharp:It sounds like in the process and as you gain experience in this sort of work, you develop your own sort of specialties in particular areas. Right? Like, that codesign on high streets, that's like then maybe that replaces the 5050 split on your on your website. It's like, that's what we're known for. That's what people come to us for.
Dave Sharp:We're giving talks to, like, local borrowers on this issue. Like, it's becoming quite the niche. Right?
Catrina Stewart:I think it's really important to kind of also make sure that you learn lessons from projects that you've finished and really kind of think about what, yeah, what what was really successful and what maybe didn't quite work and how how that can inform the next thing. But I think it also helps with then being able to kind of explain what that you know, what what were the great things that we learned in that project that we can then use to inform the next project, but also to inform in in some ways a a kind of bid or a competition. You know, what what allowed us to kind of stand out from that project that can then be used in in the next project? And I think just going back to the question about, kind of collaboration between, smaller and larger practices, I think the roles need to be defined really, really clearly. And that's, you know, that's obviously really important for the client to understand what each of you is doing.
Catrina Stewart:But I think it also helps, to explain what the benefits are of that collaboration. Just, kind of going back to the project that we kind of mentioned about the high street, one of the things that they really wanted was variety. So making sure that each shop was also personal, to the shop owners and and to, you know, to their needs, while also having an overarching kind of design methodology or or kind of language for the whole high street. So that that project worked really, really well. So they they did employ several designers to kind of work with individual shops, but then Yankertime was overseeing the whole high street.
Catrina Stewart:And so that's like a kind of perfect example. In other cases, it might be that there's a larger site and then smaller sites. And again, that's really, really useful to have you know, a different, a different, approach and a different, kind of way of thinking or way of kind of designing while still having an overarching kind of language and, an overarching approach, I suppose. And then that way, you get the variety. It's not just, you know, one one point of view or one one, you know, design approach.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. That seems to be a common sort of way these things go where it's the project becomes like it's sort of got a master plan and it becomes like a bit of a village of different architects, and each one does like a little different chunk and it creates more, like, variety in the built environment. It's not just this sort of, like, everything being ubiquitous, same design language across every every element. Right? I guess that's becoming, like, or is quite a common, I guess, collaboration.
Dave Sharp:Do you ever see it where it's more like the process element as well? Like, for example, there's some PhD expert in some particular thing, and it's like, let's bring them in because this project has some particular problem. It may be less common maybe, but just, like, a a missing process element. Does that happen too?
Hugh McEwen:Definitely. Definitely. And I think I think sort of when we were talking about kind of that those different approaches around heritage or co design or, you know, other things like that, you definitely see that. I mean, I particularly remember a a tender that we lost where one of the other teams had a chef on their team. Uh-huh.
Hugh McEwen:You know? And so there there was I I seem to remember it was a community space, and, you know, there were there was sort of an aspect of kind of food within it. But it was then about kinda how could you also have growing spaces integrated with the proposal and and things like that. So sorry. I just
Dave Sharp:What would you have to pay Jamie Oliver to come and just, like, be part of
Hugh McEwen:your team?
Dave Sharp:Because it sounds like that's
Catrina Stewart:what they do. Win with Jamie Oliver, then that's it.
Hugh McEwen:But I think there's that that is the that is almost that's the way of showing that you've really, really clearly understood what the problem is and are articulating it in a in a very unique and kind of different way. And and, yeah, I think there's so many opportunities then, you know, to bring in to bring in, you know, local photographers or local, you know, specialists in kind of particular areas where you can you can also directly invest straight back into straight back into the area. So, yeah, it it's it's it's an amazing opportunity to kind of put these teams together, I'd say.
Dave Sharp:It's pretty interesting because in the kind of consulting world, it's become like a well known thing that big consulting firms that like Bain and McKinsey and people like that that work with government, they do a lot of government consulting projects, they hire people from all sorts of random career backgrounds, like a professional violinist or, like, somebody who's, like, some sort of you know, invented some amazing, like, widget at some university laboratory. And it's like they will hire this person because they want to be able to build these really, like, bespoke teams to be able to consult on projects for these, like, different government problems or whatever. And if you don't have somebody who has that sort of, like, quite specific experience, then you're at a disadvantage, basically. So I think that's kind of interesting. I I love seeing it when practices will collaborate with nonarchitects and sort of maybe bring in artists or or kind of various kind of creative people or experts.
Dave Sharp:I think that's so cool. That gets me excited about public work. It makes me wanna get into it.
Hugh McEwen:It's also because there's no there's no kind of formula necessarily for doing these projects. You know? We've got the RBA plan of works, and that sets out kinda how you do a an architectural project in inverted commas. But that that is you know, that's maybe not really suitable to how you might do a public realm project. And so you're actually having to kind of basically reconstruct the way in which architecture is generally delivered, and and reimagine kinda how that process can be can be kinda tailored.
Hugh McEwen:And so that means that you've you've really got to think about how do you deliver all, you know, those things in that process, but in a in a in a much more particular way? And I think that's where those those differing points of view and those those specialisms can really help you to answer the the the issues in a particular in a particular project. So I think that's the benefit is when people are really inputting on that process, and it's having those having those really particular outcomes.
Dave Sharp:It's interesting. It sounds like the clients are actually kind of quite open minded to how the journey they get to the destination they wanna get to, like, in terms of the problem they're trying to solve. I think it almost feels like they're sort of going, I don't really care how you do it. You present to me how you think it should happen regardless of whether it's, like, traditional architecture or not. I don't care.
Dave Sharp:It's like, what are you gonna do? And, like, what will the result of that be? That's what it feels like. So they've they're kind of coming at it from this super wide angle of just going, bring me anything. Like, bring me the chef.
Dave Sharp:Bring me the chef and the painter and the dog groomer and the architect, and we'll see what they can come up with.
Catrina Stewart:Yeah. Because it also means, you know, that the project the outcome of the project delivers social value, but also the process delivers social value. So the way that you measure, I suppose, the success of that project is not just what was built or the outcome. It's actually how you got there, to think is really important.
Dave Sharp:Catriona, you mentioned something really good about that kind of analysis and that reflection that you do. When I've been working with clients that have been focusing on this sort of public side of work and we've interviewed those kind of borough officers and community organizations and stuff and spoken to them, I feel like they've always had this thing of, like, we want to understand the thinking that went into that architect's previous projects and, like, what worked and what didn't and a bit of an analysis of that, like an analytical kind of point of view on, like, why they did what they did. And often this there's this complaint of, like, I feel like I'm getting such a thin level of information about their previous work, and it always just comes up as this, like, recurring issue. So it was really interesting when you sort of was talking about how you actually take the time to kind of reflect and sort of tease out those successes and failures and then make that part of the communication for bids and for proposals and things like that. That's so interesting.
Dave Sharp:What is a good way to kind of bridge that communication gap? Because I feel like if you talk about it from a kind of just traditional architectural aspect, that might not necessarily relate to the non architect that you're actually trying to kind of speak to. And I guess there's the obvious things like reduce the architectural jargon and that sort of thing, but I'm more interested in terms of maybe the analytical aspect of explaining the decision making that you've had. Have you found, an approach that you sort of feel happy with?
Catrina Stewart:I think, often in these bids, they have, like, project examples or case studies. And I think, you know, often, perhaps people just give a brief description of that project and what happened and it's the same description that they put in every single bid. But a way of kind of, you know, using that project in a useful way, is, you know, we often find just kind of tailoring it to the project that you're kind of bidding for. So explaining why that while why that experience is useful for this project. But also, again, kind of ending almost with, like, lessons learned.
Catrina Stewart:You know, what what have we learned from that project, that might be useful for for the project that we're bidding for.
Hugh McEwen:And I'd say kind of moving, conversations from value systems that may be sort of, you know, architects, you know, might might see through to value systems that the client is really interested in. So, you know, we we mentioned social value, you know, sustainability, and how you can kind of show that that that project really hit the the the kind of the the the particular systems of value that the client is going to be looking at. And so you you move away from kind of necessarily articulating, you know, the space or the or the you know? Yeah. Lovely details.
Hugh McEwen:You know? Yeah. Yeah. It's much more about, you know, what did it do and why. And, if you can kind of you know, I think I think it's a different it's just it's looking at things through a different lens.
Dave Sharp:As part of this kind of communication angle of things, like, one of the issues I feel that's come up is a frustration that sometimes architects have with whether they're working with developers or they're working with council or whatever is this sense of, this certain thing is, like, really important to us, this kind of quality of product or material or whatever, like but they don't care. They don't give a shit. How do I get them to care about it? You know? Like, what can I do?
Dave Sharp:Like, they don't seem to care. And then they get in their head, and they're like, well, from now on, I'm only gonna work with clients that care, and then they can't find any. And they're like, oh, no. Why doesn't anyone care? Stop this whole category.
Dave Sharp:It becomes this whole, like, this thing. And and I kinda feel like for me, that sounds like a bit of a okay. Like, they probably do care. It's just like maybe you're not, like, kind of explaining kind of the rationale of why you value it. Like so you picked up on that thing of, like, client values, but is that something that you guys, like, can relate to, I guess?
Dave Sharp:Or, how do you how do you deal with that problem?
Hugh McEwen:I think it's really understanding how you know, what clients do care about. You know? That that that's then the way of, you know, kind of articulating what the what the benefits of something are. You know, if you can position if you can position kind of what you're proposing within that frame of reference that they're much more excited about, that's the way you kind of have those conversations. And I think, you know, I think Katrina touched on it in terms of sort of, you know, in terms of sort of how do we develop character or or personality on high streets.
Hugh McEwen:You know? How can we start to kind of, you know, deliver deliver some of those things which people are are really excited about about and interested in sort of trying to deliver through through the projects that we're looking at. And, you know, we can then you know, one of the things that we're really excited about is how color can deliver personality and and and character. And so we can then, you know, we can then see color as a tool to help design personality and character on high streets and through co co design processes. So sort of in some way, you know, we you know, obviously, people can look at color from a subjective and and sort of, you know, taste based kind of perspective.
Hugh McEwen:But, also, you can look at it in terms of kinda how can it articulate somebody's heritage or kind of what what somebody's really excited you know, what people want their their high street to kind of look like or represent. And so I think there's there's a really interesting way of then kind of moving some of those conversations into the the the the sort of the the outcomes and that you're actually sort of looking for. You're actually looking for something where somebody feels highly invested of in a in their place that they live, in the place that they they work and shop. And so you're looking for opportunities to kind of for them to see themselves represented in that in that location physically, permanently. And so, we see sort of sort of some of those some of those tools, which which maybe we've kind of used in other situations to do with materiality or to do with color, actually being fantastic ways of having really honest conversations with people about, you know, what what should their high street be like.
Hugh McEwen:So I think it's I think, you know, that's maybe an example of kind of, you know, something which, you know, yes, an architect could be incredibly concerned about and then feel that it's a a purely designed kind of conversation. But, actually, you know, when you when you zoom out on it and you look at it in terms of kind of what can it actually do for a community, you can have radically different conversations about arguably the same the same the same sort of architectural things. But it's about how what those tools kinda actually mean. You know? What what what can they actually do, you know, for for a community and for a high street?
Hugh McEwen:And I think that's what we feel is incredibly exciting, is that you can, yeah, you can really kinda shift the dial on those those things.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. So something like the way that you're using color or a certain material. As an architect, like, you kind of just wanna intuitively do things sometimes and be like, that's fun, and I kinda wanna do it, or it's really cool, or I love that, you know, terracotta, like, whatever that you know, you could do some do some things, but still finding the way that that connects obviously to a client. Being prepared to have to do that, I suppose. Right?
Dave Sharp:You're going to have to, aren't you? Or do you feel like you do get some freedom to just be like, you know what? I'm feeling like we wanna go for some cork ceilings or whatever today, and we get and we can do that. We can have fun with that.
Catrina Stewart:I think you you know, particularly with public projects, you you need to learn to kinda let go. But we can design the process, and we can, you know, we can kind of tailor that, you know, that engagement process in order to, you know, have an outcome that isn't, you know, you know, often, you you kind of think about when large groups of people are designing something, you might have something that is, you know, designed by committee sort of thing. It's the least offensive outcome that perhaps the most boring outcome that people are kind of like, yeah, it's fine. I'm not gonna get upset about it. But actually, you know, in order to get something that is, like, characterful is does kind of hold all the kind of stories, all the all the kind of, character of a place is is quite challenging in terms of, like, how do you how do you guide people?
Catrina Stewart:How How do you, codesign that process so that the things that you know, the design that comes out isn't isn't, designed by committee. And while we can't necessarily commit, you know, we can't start a project and say, okay, this is what it's going to look like, you know, particularly with public projects because obviously, you know, we haven't started consulting people. We you know, there might be 150 people who are going to be involved with this. We can tailor the process. So, we can help to make sure that the outcome from workshops is something that is, you know, still ambitious.
Catrina Stewart:It's still it's still reflective of, multiple, kind of ideas and kind of points of view. But I think that's something that we've kind of you know, refined over the years, I suppose. And, and we're still learning, you know. It's still something that, you know, we're kind of learning.
Dave Sharp:That makes sense. So if it's like you want to have, for example, character and color, and you don't want that to get lost or, like, value engineered out of the process in some way. It's like, okay. Step 4 of our structured community co design process that we're outlining is the, like, character and color pizza night with the community or whatever. And it's like, that's gonna be a step that we have to do, and then we will present the outcomes of that and all these interesting stories and colors and materials.
Dave Sharp:And it's like, that will then be the conversation about where those came from. They will then make sense, and there'll be, like, an outcome that is trying to be created from the process for that community through that activity that we did. Right? So is that the kind of idea that you would put it in there as a sort of a stage, and then it then it makes sense and it can contribute towards the outcome. It's like those decisions don't just become like
Catrina Stewart:Exactly. And they're not afterthoughts. They're things that we're kind of talking about right from the beginning. And just like you said, you know, actually giving space for those conversations. You know, often, you know, people talk about color as if it's something, I don't know, superficial or something that, you know, we shouldn't talk about because it's subjective.
Catrina Stewart:But, actually, as soon as you kind of treat it as a kind of building material, you talk to people about, you know, okay, what do what color what would be the color palette of, you know, this public space or this high street or, you know, what what is the color palette that kind of, you feel most kind of represents this community? And then we go through a process. So it's not, you know, we don't just talk about it once. We talk about it throughout the process. And that means that people feel, you know, ownership over that palette.
Catrina Stewart:And it's not something that they've, you know, just hear about, you know, one day. It's something that we've been talking about throughout the whole process. But it's really important to give space to those things because, of course, you know, design has a huge impact on on a space and, you know, color, materials. You know, what what makes that kind of public space successful is, you know, is the kind of design that you know, what what what has actually, kind of be made in the space. And, yeah, giving giving space to those conversations early on, I think, is is really useful.
Dave Sharp:Kind of talking about color and character and material is probably not a bad segue into this next topic, which I feel like one thing that, office s and m has always sort of stood out for is, like, color and playfulness and distinctiveness. I feel like that's always been there in the DNA from from early on. Right? Like, how would you sort of describe, I guess, like, the role that that sort of sense of playfulness has played for the practice. And, also, I guess, like, as the studio evolves and kind of gets bigger and and sort of does different types of work, is it is it another one of those things that sort of slightly changes or, like, adjusts, or is it one of those things that you kind of go, it served us well, and we're gonna keep on kind of running with this sort of identity kind of into the future.
Dave Sharp:Yeah.
Hugh McEwen:I think playfulness is kind of really part of our process. It's really a way that also we rigorously test things. You know, I I think as Katrina was mentioning about kind of, you know, using color and bringing that into conversation sort of early, but then also checking that kind of all the way through the process is that you you're you're you're kind of constantly sort of reworking and reimagining these things as well and making sure they're right. And and I think that kind of, yeah, that that playfulness is the ability to sort of look at things in a new light and look at things in a in a different way, in a kinda honest way, and and come up with the outcome that sort of, you know, maybe almost slightly obvious. You know?
Hugh McEwen:It it's sort of the the thing that has been has been tested and is right, and and then has that has that kind of, yeah, has that that sort of not naivety, but but sort of slight kind of, you know, clarity, I think. You know? It it's sort of I I think it it almost kinda comes back to then also the language of how we talk about things and trying to make things really approachable. How do you kinda make a process that's really approachable? Well, maybe you model it you do model it on things that are very easy to interact with, and that can be about, you know, you know, actually physically interacting with things.
Hugh McEwen:Those those kind of those sorts of ways of interacting do you do often find within teaching or learning environments, you know, and and also you you find within within kind of play environments as well. And so it's really looking at kinda how can we how can we use sort of playfulness as a as a tool. You know? How can that be sort of part of a process? How can that be part of an outcome?
Hugh McEwen:And I think that really is about is about, honesty and clarity. You know? So it it it yeah. Maybe that's quite a boring answer to to to something to an idea of play, but I I think there is that idea of actually play is about rigorous testing. You know, you might think it's childish, but, actually, it's about an an honesty and a direct engagement and a constant kind of redoing of something until it until it's kind of until it's sort of right.
Dave Sharp:Could you maybe give me an example to sort of illustrate that in terms of how playfulness is kind of testing? Like, what's the kind of the connection between the between the 2?
Hugh McEwen:You're looking at different avenues. You're diff looking at different ways of doing, you know, a similar a similar thing and trying to get to the right answer that allows you to kind of progress to the next stage. And I think, you know, I know we talked a lot about a lot a lot about color, but, you know, you've got the entire palette to sort of start with. And then through conversations, that starts to whittle down, and then you start to look at kinda how those work together and what people's in, you know, input is and then how they work graphically and materially. And, you know, so you you're you're going through an iterative process, which I would say is a process of play.
Catrina Stewart:And often these decisions are kind of or this kind of play is is around kind of narrative and stories and feeding in, kind of stories of a place of of the people, but also of of materials. You know, one of the things that we often do is we use, kind of recycled materials and, you know, there's a kind of sustainability element to that. It kind of reduces, waste, but there's also a narrative aspect to it. And this idea that, you know, this material had has had a previous existence. And, I kind of I don't know.
Catrina Stewart:I kind of respect for that as well. You know, people might be looking at a kind of surface that has got, you know, in a kitchen, for example, that has got, old or kind of, rubbish probably often from, you know, kitchen waste embedded within within that kind of work surface. And the idea that those materials have had a previous story, a previous kind of history, I suppose, is really interesting to us and something that we we kind of like to weave into projects.
Dave Sharp:I guess, like, it's interesting that as a brand, you've gone on a bit of a journey with the playfulness concept into different being a more process oriented sort of story rather than being like a visual necessarily, like a visual playfulness, which I think it was kind of as an outsider, like, looking at you guys, I would have felt like that's what that term referred to would have been, like, kind of the the way that you approach color and material and form that, like, oh, it's playful, and it's fun. There's lots of color and that sort of thing. And it had, like, quite a maybe almost a kind of superficial meaning at at a point there, but then it's turned into this, like, much more deeper form of playfulness, I think, where it's, like, talking about process. And I guess, like, that kinda comes back to that first conversation we had about as the practice changes and as the type of work that you do changes and story changes, it's like, how do you find those things that are sort of transferable from, like, an earlier stage to a, like, a later stage? And it feels like that's kind of one angle that you've kind of definitely implemented.
Dave Sharp:Right?
Hugh McEwen:Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, some of those things are, you know, are you know, they are playful. They are also playful in kinda how you interact with them, and we, you know, use a lot of color theory to change how spaces feel, and, you know, the the the environment is you know, the the we the the environments that we create are very much about how you experience them. But I think that the way, yeah, the way that we do that and the way that we develop that, there is a sort of, I suppose, maybe a maturity to that process.
Hugh McEwen:But that that is kind of having worked on it for a for a kind of long, you know, long period of time. And it's really because we collaborate so closely kind of with, obviously, with public clients, but also with private clients on, you know, the homes that we design as well. So none of, you know, it it it, you know, it yeah. It's never like, this is the project where it gets to do that color or the flavor of the month is this, so we're going to do, you know, that that palette. It's really about having having that kind of honesty and and and kind of engagement, but but throughout throughout the process and sort of seeing what the opportunities are for for these kind of design elements to then answer the problems that are within a space.
Hugh McEwen:You know? You know, we can we can look at kind of changing, yeah, changing the scale of a space, changing the weather within a space using color. And it can then represent, you know, the the stories and and the people who are living in those homes. And so it's really about kind of, you know, seeing what the opportunities are for those different elements of architecture to then to then actually answer the problems that that we were posed in the first place.
Dave Sharp:I like the way that you guys have got these, like, consistent positioning elements. I I would call them in, like, marketing strategy jargon, but, like, playfulness, kinda color plays a really important role. Narrative seems to play a really important role. And there's probably, like, 1 or 2 things that you could maybe add. Maybe the just codesign in general as a principle is, like, something you really wanna emphasize, but I feel like we're kinda covering it.
Dave Sharp:You can kind of, like, boil it down to some simple ideas, but I've tested you throughout this conversation on, like, how have how have they been applied in these different areas? And, like, straight away without any hesitation, you're like, yes. This is imbued into this and this and this, and it's like, damn. They've really worked it out. I don't know.
Dave Sharp:Is that is that the right
Hugh McEwen:just update.
Dave Sharp:Is that sort of the right I'm trying to find something where you don't have, like no. We haven't actually figured out how this particular theme relates to this work we're doing. Like, you're like, you've actually really the hierarchy of, like, how these ideas connect to the different layers and levels of, like, the process and the end result and our brand identity. It's all tying together, like, super cohesively, and I think it's a really good example because I think that's how you want these, like, core, like, DNA kind of ideas to actually, like, roll out into the world. It's like you want them to be consistently applied across every level.
Dave Sharp:I don't know. That's just my sort of read on on on you guys.
Hugh McEwen:I think that's kind of that is one of the benefits to the practice of also doing the public work is that you become so used to articulating yourself to people. And I think also because we do understand that there is, you know, there is a difference between public work and private work, and there are some people that focus in one sector and people who focus in another sector, that we've got to kind of clearly articulate what the connection is between those 2 different spheres and and sort of see what the benefits are, you know, between between those 2, you know, two sides of things. So, yeah, I think I think that that's something that we've we've worked on for for a while. But, yeah, it's it's you you you do see that there is a similarity between the way in which we we we kind of, yeah, sort of use yeah. Can can can kind of work in those 2 different those 2 different areas.
Dave Sharp:Love it. Any final conclusions, recaps to sort of end the episode? And
Hugh McEwen:Yeah. I think at the end of the day, it's kind of looking at how those those those value systems that, you know, our clients are looking at, we can really understand them and show how, you know, we build in social sustainability, we build in financial sustainability, and we build in environmental sustainability into into the process that we're going to we're going to offer to them. And that makes sure that the outcomes are going to have those those, you know, that those those aspects of sustainability, within them.
Dave Sharp:Seems like that way that you design the process, that's the big thing I've kind of taken away from our chat today is just, like, the kind of the the thought that you put into that, which is not something I didn't really even thought about before It's like, how critical that is in terms of, like, both trying to get the public projects or win them and be successful, but also, like, delivering the noncommittified result that you spoke about, Kajida.
Catrina Stewart:And I think I think that's maybe those things are particularly important or maybe we we feel are particularly important to kind of, articulate in you know, to particularly with public clients because I think sometimes people see, you know, difference or character or color sometimes as as something that's risky. You know, as soon as something's different, people are kind of like, oh, you know, what this feels more risky. And so it's almost like we have, you know, having done several bids, have now realized we just need to really explain the process and and really kind of talk about or explain how we're delivering this kind of generosity and this character without it needing to cost more or without, you know, doing all all of the things that, you know, they really want us to do.
Dave Sharp:You and Katrina, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and just, like, being complete open books. I really appreciate it. So thank you so much.
Hugh McEwen:Thanks very much.
Dave Sharp:That was my conversation with Hugh and Katrina from Office S&M. If you'd like to learn more about their studio, you can visit officesnm.com or follow them on Instagram at officesandm. Office Talk is supported by Office Dave Sharp, a strategic marketing and brand definition practice for architecture. We work collaboratively with clients across the globe. So to learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit officedavesharpe.com.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode of Office Talk was edited and engineered by Anthony Richardson of Simple Dwelling Studio. That's all for this episode. Thank you so much for listening.
Hugh McEwen:I'll see
Dave Sharp:you next time.
