Oliver Leech
Welcome to Office Talk, a fortnightly podcast featuring in-depth conversations with leading architects about their approach to business marketing and communications. I'm your host, Dave Sharp, an architectural marketing expert and director of Office Dave Sharp, a marketing practice offering specialized consultancy, marketing, and PR services tailored to meet the particular needs of architects. Visit office dave sharp.com to learn more or follow the practice on Instagram at officedavesharp.
Dave Sharp:Joining me on the show today is Oliver Leech, the director of Oliver Leech Architects, a London based practice known for crafting homes that celebrate life, light, and materials. In this episode, Oliver and I discussed how he attracted new clients in the 1st few years of the practice, where there was limited imagery to post on social media and why building his professional network played such a big role. We spoke about why less can be more when it comes to posting on social media and why they chose to avoid posting process imagery in favor of final project photography. We discussed how he curated the practice portfolio to attract a broader range of residential projects and avoid being pigeonholed to one type of housing or area of London. He spoke about why starting a practice in his twenties was a challenge and how he thinks about client attitudes about young architects and the advantages and disadvantages of putting a portrait and profile out there.
Dave Sharp:And finally, we spoke about their approach to final project photography and styling, and the difficulty of finding the right balance between a pared back architectural image or a lifestyle shoot focused more on the client. So I hope you enjoy my conversation with Oliver Leach of Oliver Leach Architects.
Dave Sharp:Ollie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Oliver Leech:Thanks, Dave. It's great to be here.
Dave Sharp:So should we start off with a little bit of a background of the practice? I know you started in 2016, so take us back and tell us about your journey starting the practice.
Oliver Leech:I was actually working for a small practice doing similar work, sort of high end, resi. And I got a couple of inquiries from friends and family, and it sort of gave me the, ambition to start my own practice. So, I always knew I wanted to do house I loved it. I love designing houses. And so that I I always had even from, like I think I actually wanted to be an architect, when I was, like, 9.
Oliver Leech:So if you mind when I was a teenager or whenever, I wanted to be an architect and I love the idea of designing houses. So, like, my whole ambition, even going to uni and then my first few jobs was like, when am I going to start home practice? It was it was a case of, like, when rather than if, and I just really was waiting for the chance. And and a couple of chances came early on where, I mean, I was only a few years after graduating, working for, Neil DeShayco, who's an architect here. And so I was working for Neil, and at one point, it was just me and him.
Oliver Leech:So I really got that sort of hands on. I could see all behind, you know, how how to run a practice, how to run projects, and I absolutely loved running the residential projects that we were doing. And, I had a couple of inquiries from friends who knew I'd, recently become an architect. And that got me thinking, like, is this the right opportunity to start, you know, my own thing? But it didn't it didn't happen overnight.
Oliver Leech:I I remember I went down to 2 days, I think, 2 days a week just doing my own thing. And then, you know, after a couple of months, that then turned into, like, a full time job. So, yeah, that's how it sort of began very naturally. And, it's just small stuff at the beginning. Loft extensions, rear extensions on, you know, remodeling houses.
Oliver Leech:And, you know, I I wasn't fussed. I was, like, super excited to do these projects. They were my first chance to really go out on my own and set my own agenda and do my own designs. So I wasn't really fussy, to be honest. But that sort of just became a starting point and it mothballed into something much, much well where we are today.
Oliver Leech:So
Dave Sharp:I feel like sometimes the way this story ends of those initial round of projects from friends and family is that, and then we did that loft extension, and then it was on the cover of wallpaper, and it won the the AJ award, and it won this and it won that, and it was just like the biggest project in the world, and off we went. Was that like your kind of trajectory?
Oliver Leech:I did a couple of extensions that, they're not on the website, but they were lovely. We we thought we did a great job. Clients were super happy. But then actually quite early on, so it's like 3 months into starting the practice, we got a really nice job in in Kensington in London. And that was a big, big project for us.
Oliver Leech:And that's the point I couldn't, like, start to employ people. So that sort of that gave us the springboard to doing, like, the jobs we wanted to do. And that was then you know, that's a great project, and that could be on the you know, through in magazines and on on websites and start to build portfolio. But it takes a it takes it takes for years. I mean, that process I mean, that project in particular took about 3 years.
Oliver Leech:So it it does take a while to to get to that stage.
Dave Sharp:During that period, were you just sort of head down working on the projects? Not really much else you can really do at that point, right, like, from a marketing standpoint. But were you were you kind of out there sort of were you doing anything? Were you sharing anything on Instagram? Were you making, like, renders or models or drawings?
Oliver Leech:Yeah. You obviously don't have any portfolio whatsoever. We so we did some visuals, so, like, 2 or 3. And so the website at the beginning for the first sort of probably 18 months was like just one picture on website. As a visual we did of this project we were working on.
Oliver Leech:And we were very proud of it. We're like, this is really cool. But obviously, that's not gonna win you, like, the projects and the clients you want. So, so the marketing, you can't really do a lot of the sort of Instagram website. But I think actually just networking, that was like our best marketing tool.
Oliver Leech:So I spent a long time working on just meeting people, building on the network we had. It wasn't just, like, like, people we meet, that could become clients. It was actually a lot of our jobs were from consultants and, engineers we worked with in the past, you know, surveyors, other contractors, and they actually gave us quite a few commissions through their friends. So that was quite useful. And just just being sort of everyone's friend and just trying to trying to tell people yeah.
Oliver Leech:Anyone who'd listen, we'd be like, oh, we just started to practice.
Dave Sharp:That's super interesting because I think, like, you know, often we think about word-of-mouth and referral just kind of happening kind of organically, and it does. Right? But there I guess there are things that you can do to sort of speed it up when you need to, I guess, making the time for those people. Right? Was that basically what it came down to, or were you primarily catching up with people that you had already kind of worked with and interacted with and knew?
Dave Sharp:Or was it about, like, looking up, like, there's this really cool planning consultant on Instagram? I don't know them. I don't have any mutual connections, but let's email them out of the blue.
Oliver Leech:No. It's never cold. So, although we did try we did flyer actually once, and that was a complete waste of time.
Dave Sharp:A flyer?
Oliver Leech:Yeah. Where? To who? You got As in, like, 3 letter boxes, like, we do extensions.
Dave Sharp:Oh, you got real,
Oliver Leech:like And that's
Dave Sharp:Out there.
Oliver Leech:That was Yeah. Stick. Yeah. Didn't get a single. Anyway, so, no.
Oliver Leech:The the sort of the the networking is really like because I always wanted to start practice the projects I was doing for other company. You know, when I was employed, I was thinking like, you know, when I speak to engineers and stuff, like, let's build a relationship here because there's a likelihood that, you know, we can work together in the future when when I have my own studio. So it's sort of building on that network. And and then those people, they, they hear about you starting a practice and they have a friend who might have a small extension and they know it's too small for a sort of established practice, But they might say to them like, oh, Ollie's just started a practice 6 months ago. He might be a good fit.
Oliver Leech:And then you sort of get inquiries that way. So, yeah, you'd it's, it there's no, like, one way, I guess, to to keep but but we, you know, we had a steady stream in the first, few years of just you don't need many projects, to be honest. But
Dave Sharp:That's the thing. I get so many, like, emails and questions from listeners of the show that are saying, like, I'm in that 1st few years, trying to win more work, but I'm really struggling to put stuff on Instagram. Like, how do I fix this problem? But it's like, maybe Instagram is just not the right way to get clients in the 1st few years. Like, maybe it's not the most effective way to do it.
Dave Sharp:Maybe alternatives like that networking potential referrals from consultants or builders or whatever, maybe that will yield better results. Right?
Oliver Leech:I'd say 90% of our work in the 1st few years was all friends, friends of friends, family friends, consultants, things like that. So I I don't think probably people saw our Instagram for the 1st couple of years. So, you can put nice things on just to, like, you know, when people do Google you and say, like, oh, what is it up to? You've got some nice images. But, yeah, it's only when you have a I guess the first 5 years is really building the portfolio, to the point you can start to show it off.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode of Office Talk is sponsored by Office Dave Sharp. At Office Dave Sharp, we take a longer term approach to strategy, marketing, and brand definition. Working exclusively with established local and global architecture practices, we apply our structured and in-depth process to develop thoughtful brand strategies and a considered 12 month plan for those looking to reflect on the direction of their business. By placing a stronger focus on highly crafted marketing and and elevating the quality of your brand elements, including messaging, visuals, media, and more, we're able to provide you with research driven methodologies that are backed by measurable outcomes. This style of thinking and working doesn't just consider your practice's impact and purpose beyond tomorrow.
Dave Sharp:It provides a thoughtful approach for your marketing that focuses on quality, not quantity. So for more information or to book a consultation, simply visit officedavesharpe.com. You were in kind of like hustle mode in those early days, dropping off flyers, networking, just trying to like make stuff happen which is beautiful. And the sense I always get from, you know, residential in particular is that, like, it's really about the art of kind of picking the right clients or selecting the right clients or having an idea of, like, the types of projects you're really aspiring to do. At what point did you start to, like, narrow down your net, I suppose.
Dave Sharp:Were you still kind of being quite filtered in terms of what came back from those various sources even at that early point? Did you have an idea in mind of, like, I'm trying to go for this type of client? What were you thinking of that in those earlier years?
Oliver Leech:Yes and no. So we've always had a, like, super clear well, I've always had a very clear vision of, like, where I wanted to be, and it was never muddled in a way. Like, I wanted to design nice houses, like, bespoke one off, unique houses. And my ideal project would probably be one in a beautiful landscape. And and so that was that was always the goal.
Oliver Leech:We weren't using residential art, you know, projects to as a stepping stone to something different. And so in a way, that made the marketing or branding a little easier because we knew our exact audience, that we want, you know, eventual our eventual audience, I should say, because obviously, those dream projects aren't happening on day 1. So we weren't at the same time, we were very clear about where we wanted to be in sort of, like, let's we sort of set ourselves like a 10 year timeline. Like, in 10 years, we want to be doing these type of projects. So we always need that.
Oliver Leech:But at the same time, we you know, getting there is different to actually knowing where you're trying to get to. So I think at the beginning, we just were not picky at all. Like, I reckon the first 5 years we saw as like just building a portfolio.
Dave Sharp:So up until just recently.
Oliver Leech:Yeah. Up until till yesterday.
Dave Sharp:Up until this morning, we've been really just doing whatever we can.
Oliver Leech:Yeah. No. I think I think actually the last few years, you know, last 2, 3 years has really felt a shift, for us. So we've and that's a luxury now that we can, you know, we we can be more picky, and that's great for us. But at the beginning, that wasn't the case.
Oliver Leech:And it's so, I mean, to put it in context, we're probably done our, like, 50th job, something like that, now. But on our website, it's like 12 projects. Like so we've been very careful about this curated image, showing only the projects that are going to get us to the place we want to be. And it doesn't mean we didn't enjoy the projects that aren't there. I mean, they they were great projects for us at the time, and we did some lovely jobs.
Oliver Leech:But if they're not gonna attract the clients that you want in 10 years, then then then why why show them off? So, yeah, we were we weren't pick we would do we would do pretty much 90% of the jobs that came through the door. Whereas now it's probably the opposite. So
Dave Sharp:It's interesting that ratio there of sort of 50 jobs and 12 on the website that are kind of out there in a marketed. It's that balance, isn't it between going, if we get jobs out more often and more content and more projects, and that's gonna get us, you know, that feels like that will get us more clients, which is makes sense. But then on the other hand, it's like sometimes then you're sort of letting projects slip through the net that are maybe putting the wrong message out there or are not absolutely aligned. So it's, I guess, kind of find that balance, because you must sometimes kind of go, we've got this gap. We just wanna have a project fill that space.
Dave Sharp:Or are you pretty disciplined about going, like, no. We'll wait, like, even
Oliver Leech:We are now. We are now. I think, it has changed. And that's that's the that's the benefit of having a little bit more experience, a little bit of a bigger portfolio. You can dictate the type of projects you have, or or that you want.
Oliver Leech:But I saw it at the start of really just like law of averages. Like, if you get enough jobs in, some are going to be good jobs. Like, you're going because, it's like a gamble. You just hope that, like, you can turn what is seemingly a quite, insignificant brief into something that's really special, and it does happen. So one of the first jobs we ever got asked to do was a, the the brief was like a granny annex in the back of the client's garden.
Oliver Leech:And that could have been as like simple as a garden shed, but actually now, well, we've just it's just gone onto, Instagram, and it's it's very popular at the moment on you know, it's done really well in in, in magazines and awards, and that's, a project, called Butterfly House. And and it's now a 2 bed house, really interesting geometry and beautiful materials. And that's something we actually started working on in 2018. And when we picked it up, we really didn't know it was, like, an amazing project. And it just turned out that way through, you know, talking to the client and actually realizing their brief potentially was not exactly what they, set out at the beginning.
Oliver Leech:So, you just have to sort of play that that game, that gambling. I think other I mean, it's the same thing as, like, I don't I don't think you can ever take on jobs, and know they're guaranteed, like, amazing projects. You don't you just don't know. So you can try and have all these filters and have a system and a funnel system where you go, right. Well, I have this criteria, and it's it's the budget has to be x before I'm even willing to talk to the client.
Oliver Leech:And, you know, we have them now a little bit, to try and filter out, and it's a it's a way to save time. But I I reckon we probably let some really great projects slip through the net because we've said no to maybe the budget. And, likewise, some great projects that look great on paper turn out to be not such portfolio pieces. So, yeah, you I don't think it's an exact science, really. And
Dave Sharp:it's it's reassuring to hear it. There's quite a lot that's said about having this super tight filter about everything and being really, like, pedantic about it and people sending these enormous, like, vetting forms to ask a 1,000 questions, and they're looking for that one little iffy thing that they're looking to reject a project on. You can't judge a project by its cover. Right? Like, you don't know what that brief will turn into.
Dave Sharp:You don't know what that budget really looks like. I I love hearing these examples.
Oliver Leech:But, of course, it changes, doesn't it? So, like, it's supply and demand. So if you have lots of projects on, you can be really picky. And and at one point, we had a a waiting list that was 6 months long, And we said, like, well, just get in the queue if you wanna use us. You know, during COVID, it was very busy.
Oliver Leech:And then more recently, it's been much, much quieter in the industry. So you have to sort of play it by ear a bit. And just and just not at the beginning, we just yeah. It was just more about, as your Aussie architects always like to say, like getting runs on the board early on. And like, I think it's true.
Oliver Leech:I mean, it's just about and also about testing yourself as well because, like, I was in my late twenties when I started my own studio. So, you also have to go through a certain number of projects to sort of build up that sort of level of experience that you want to have for the for when if the big project comes along, which, you know, it it will do, it does, then you've gotta be prepared as well.
Dave Sharp:I'm just interested in, I guess, avoiding being seen as doing small low budget projects. Now that we're talking about while talking about kind of being open to everything because you never know, also trying not to, I guess, get pigeonholed or associated with, like, typecast as the practice that does, like, little really small sort of low budget renovations and things like that.
Oliver Leech:Yeah. I think we've always been very conscious of that. So I think, it's something that is yeah. It's about branding. It's about marketing, isn't it?
Oliver Leech:So that that's where the marketing is so important because you might be doing a bunch of, extensions in the same area in London. But do you actually put them all on the website? Probably not. Because we did we knew we didn't want to I mean, so the ultimate destination where we wanted to be where we we set our destination to be in is to a one off house in a beautiful location and possibly international projects. And, and I can, you know, sit here now and say, well, like, we're doing one in Italy and some, projects in Zambia, and that's super exciting.
Oliver Leech:So, like, we're on the right track. But to get there, we've we were very conscious of, like, not being just this London centric, like, Victorian house extent. Because there's loads of projects like that, and you can be quickly yeah. They they're great projects, but you can be quickly doing, you know, 10 projects. And and and that your website's full of the same things, and people know you for that, and that's great.
Oliver Leech:But we wanted to make sure we could get to our destination. So we were very conscious of location as well. So we did a lot of jobs outside London as soon as, so much more.
Dave Sharp:Was that
Dave Sharp:just through your kind of networking and referral that you sort of let your intentions be known to everybody that, hey. We're looking for stuff outside of London even though we're kind of in London. Don't assume that just because we're in a certain part of London that we only want projects in that immediate area. We wanna be all over the place. Yeah.
Oliver Leech:I think it's just, when when a project comes along that is a bit further out, then you take it and then
Dave Sharp:they have friendships. You'll eventually get one randomly.
Oliver Leech:Yeah. They'll they'll have a friend that's a bit further out there, so they'll recommend you. So we've done quite a few in Surrey. I mean, it's not far from London. But that it shows that you're, like, you're working in the in the countryside.
Oliver Leech:You're not working in the city. So then, you know, we've got now jobs in Hampshire, lots in the Cotswolds. So, like, you can start to build this brand up of a UK architect, not just London architect. So, and what and if you could do it in the cold spots, why can't you do it in Italy? So, although that's, yeah, slightly big jump, slightly bigger jump than London.
Oliver Leech:But, yeah, why not? So we were conscious of that. I mean, I don't think it's anything we particularly did or didn't do, but
Dave Sharp:I sense that it was just like a sort of mindfulness of what was going on, like the way it was all kinda coming together. And it's because you have that destination in mind or that project. Like, if you hadn't kind of put that up on your sort of your vision board on your wall of, like, where we wanna go, you wouldn't be having a sense of, like, restlessness about the small sort of Victorian terrorist extensions that you otherwise might have, because you were kind of thinking like, this is not really where we kind of went ahead with this. So it just sounds like it was good to have kind of a bit of a mood board of what you wanted to be kind of doing that you've been thinking about for a long time.
Oliver Leech:It's always been clear in my mind. I think having it clear in your mind is much easier than having it sort of clear to other people. And I think that's the art of good branding. And I guess that's something we're always trying to improve and look at and get people to help us with potentially is to, like, how do we actually communicate that to other people? Because while it while I know what I where I wanna be and who I wanna work for, is that, like, is that clear?
Oliver Leech:And I think some architects do use residential architecture as like a stepping stone. And so I think for them, their their sort of communication can be much more muddled because, you know, they they want to appear either they still want the domestic jobs because they need to pay the bills, but they also want to attract different set of clients that are doing different jobs. So we could we could just set up our website to talk to basically homeowners. That's that's this. It's super simple that way.
Oliver Leech:So we say we're, you know, we're specialist in, designing one off houses, whether that be in the countryside or London. And, that's what we do, and that's what we love doing. So it makes it sort of much more clear, I think, in how you and how you, like, you know, pick jobs, market yourself, like, what what you post on Instagram, all these things, I think.
Dave Sharp:If you're happy and comfortable with a specialized or a specialist kind of direction, then, yeah, it is a lot easier to communicate. Right? You're talking about, you're able to kind of speak to the homeowner and I guess, like, have a kind of a more specific kind of message for them. What did you feel resonated with them? Or, I guess, like, what were you trying to do differently to other sort of residential practices or things that you sort of set out when we're definitely not gonna do this, whatever this other thing is that we see out there in the in the market or is really, like, commonplace.
Dave Sharp:Is there anything that kinda comes to mind?
Oliver Leech:Well, I think, just making the process as clear as possible because
Dave Sharp:it I
Oliver Leech:mean, the process of the projects and and how you get from, design to a finished house or a finished extension. And I think just that clarity conveying that through the websites and through your work and everything is sort of attracts that. Because domestic clients, this is their probably their first time doing a project. Whereas if you work for developers, you don't need to set your stall out like that. Like, I imagine they know exactly what they're doing.
Oliver Leech:So, I you I think that's, you know, it's not just a website. It's like, the the pamphlets and the the the, sort of the printed things we have to send send to the client when we first meet them and talk them through the process. And I think that's also part of marketing is, it's it's it's the day you arrive at their front door and like, what are you wearing and what you look like and all these things. But also, you know, how you describe the services you offer.
Dave Sharp:So you're working with residential clients. They're inexperienced in the category in a lot of cases. I mean, maybe in the future, you know, later on down the road as you kind of progress and get different types of residential clients, you might find ones that have been around the block a few more times, and maybe that will change. Like, that's something that I find happens quite often. But, like, when you're in those earlier years, I think it is most of those people that are sort of inexperienced.
Dave Sharp:But I guess then, like, it sounds like a big part of your role putting those documents together and, like, turning up the right way and kind of, like, helping to sort of create a good experience of them through the process. It sounds like it's kind of partially about building that trust. Right? Because as a newer practice, you know, as a younger practice, you you don't necessarily have that, like, rock solid industry reputation honed over 30 years. So you kinda have to turn up and be like, you can trust me.
Dave Sharp:Right? Like I feel like that's part of it. Isn't it? Part of the challenge.
Oliver Leech:Yeah. Yeah. It's absolutely part of the challenge and I think it's something you get better at of course. But trying to convey this sense that you're the trusted adviser from from day 1, and you're going to hold their hand all the way through the project and take them through what is probably the most expensive, outlay they'll ever make, and probably stressful as well sometimes. So you've you've got to be there and say, don't worry.
Oliver Leech:We've done this before. We know what we're doing. It's going to be okay. And like, you know, and it's not it's not meant to be scary. So that's that's also part of it.
Oliver Leech:And and the trust is super important. I think all our best projects, when we look back and the work and we can we know when it's it's it's generally down to the client. And if that trust is really high throughout the whole job, it just results in such a nice project because you're allowed to do your best work. They can relax, and there's this great bond between the client and the architect. You know, if you can't convey that trust from the beginning, then it sort of it's it's sort of you start on a rocky, on rocky plains.
Oliver Leech:So you've you've got to sort of model your way through a little bit. But I think it's hard because obviously you don't have that portfolio. You can't say, look at those 10 jobs that we completed last year. Like, that's what we can do for you. You have to you have to you have to do it in message through the messaging that you're giving them rather than images, really.
Oliver Leech:So it's about sort of, yeah, talking to them and and letting them feel, that, you know, they're in safe hands.
Dave Sharp:On that same vein, also, you know, you mentioned that you were starting the practice in your late twenties, and I think that's, I guess, becoming less and less common these days. I guess the age that people are starting architecture practices, I imagine, is probably going up, if I had to guess. But that's like another challenge when you're doing that, having that trust and that kind of credibility early on when you don't have the portfolio yet. It's so brutal, isn't it? Because they see you as a younger person.
Dave Sharp:They don't necessarily, think right off the bat, oh, this guy has the experience. He knows what he's doing. But how do you it's saying you just overcome it with that building that trust and that and that sort of messaging. And
Oliver Leech:Yeah. One of the ways we, tried to solve that problem was being a bit mysterious. So, I think not having pictures of our pictures of us on the website was part of that actually. And and not being, like, you know, with oh, I'm 28, and I'm here to do your extension. That's not that's not that's not gonna work.
Oliver Leech:So maybe one day, someone will convince me to get a picture of myself on the website. But so far, we haven't liked with like, you can find images probably somewhere, but, the website is very sort of quiet about who we are, and it's more about the projects. And I think that's actually been a conscious decision rather than just something we haven't got around to. And I think, yeah, we we'd client if a client sees a picture of someone, I think there's a lot of things that you can project onto that to that image, and I saw some of them can be wrong. And so taking those risks away and saying, like, judge us on our work.
Oliver Leech:And then the day we meet you, we can sit down and we can have a discussion. And that's that's your first interaction. And they might be surprised when I, you know, they I ring the doorbell and I open the door, and they're like, oh, you're a bit young. But but but that's fine because you're you're there now so you can chat. And and once you've had that chat, most of the time, it yeah.
Oliver Leech:You you can hook them in. But, I think that's actually you know, you're not taking away the personality from the website because the personality is in the in the work in a way.
Dave Sharp:In the work. Just branding.
Oliver Leech:Yeah. Exactly. You're just not explicitly saying, you know, I am, I look like this, therefore you can make assumptions about other things.
Dave Sharp:It's definitely challenging, like, ideas I've had about this in the past where, you know, typically a genuine generally say that sort of transparency is probably better than not, you know, like particularly I'll have this issue where practices will have nobody on their website, or they might be a bit self conscious about only being a 3 person practice when they feel like everyone expects them to be a 12 person practice or whatever. And so they won't put anything on there, Or they're maybe a bit young, or they're, or maybe there's like other issues that they're concerned about in terms of perception, and they won't put stuff on their website. And I've always felt like that maybe would send a bit of a create a bit of a red flag or a trust issue for potential clients that are coming on the site. But I think the way you've put it is really, really, really interesting actually, this idea of, well, they can kind of project whatever they want onto the practice. It becomes this sort of, like, empty vessel, and they can kind of go, you know what?
Dave Sharp:I just I'll come up with my own idea of what I think Oliver Leach is and who he is and all this sort of stuff. And then Yeah.
Oliver Leech:If they want me to be some sort of 60 year old man who has done 400 projects, then they can project that onto me. I mean, I mean, that probably not the project thing because the website only has 12.
Dave Sharp:But And but that part's interesting because I would have always assumed that if they then turn up and then it's different to their expectations, you've just, like, they walk out the door. Like, you've you've lost that trust or whatever or they've, you know, whatever. But but you've you've actually made the opposite point, which is that, you know, you just have that conversation and you build that trust the normal way and that even though you might be different to what they were expecting, that's not necessarily a problem.
Oliver Leech:I mean, I'm sure there's been occasions where they've opened the door and gone to like, I was looking for someone a bit more experienced. I I don't really feel comfortable with someone who's just started in a few years ago, so, like, go in a different direction. But that is so rare, I think. Yeah. The more often than not, it's it's on bad.
Oliver Leech:Better. Yep. I mean, we haven't we never put the picture of ourselves on the website. So we might put the picture on next month and actually drives up inquiries, but, you know
Dave Sharp:We talked about the experience not necessarily being there, but, k, we've got projects now. They're real. They're happening. Do we start really, like, indulging in the process, or do we, like, hold on and wait patiently for them to be finished? That's, like, another one of those tough questions right because it's so tempting you're in that stage and you're like oh it's being built let's get lots of photos of wheelbarrows and buckets.
Oliver Leech:I know And and we did we did both. So I think you want to show the process because you are an architect. You're and and and you're excited. You wanna show the world. And, actually, when we when I follow other architects on Instagram, I love the process photos.
Oliver Leech:I think, like, I can see that detail coming to life, and that's really cool. I can't wait for the next update. But in truth, when we did post that sort of stuff, it's it, like, died. No one no one liked it. And, so we we just sort of, you know, it's trial and error, really.
Oliver Leech:You you do it and you but the thing is at the start, you only have process photos. So, you know, you put up what you can. We weren't saying, like, don't post because we're scared of showing the world, like, behind the scenes. But now but now but now we have the portfolio. We we don't bother.
Oliver Leech:We we we've just sort of taken decision, like, people wanna see nice, beautiful images of our designs, and that's what people are following us for. There might be some other architects who think, oh, I'd love to see some behind the scenes, but, like, I don't know how many architects as a percentage of our followers versus, like, potential clients. So, yeah, we've taken a decision now because we have enough pictures to to run with. Like, let's just show really crisp, clear images. And that I think that helps the brand as well.
Oliver Leech:Sort of everything can be quite curated, and it's down to this idea of actually just sometimes less is much more powerful.
Dave Sharp:But how do you make that work in practice? Because, yes, like, you've got the portfolio, but, obviously, it's sort of new images, like original images that haven't been seen or posted a whole bunch of times before that tend to be the way to go. And I mean, how often are you sort of shooting projects at the moment? You know? How are you sort of making it work on a consistent basis?
Oliver Leech:In the last few years, we sort of finished, I'd say, on average, about 4 projects a year. So we've sort of split it into, like, let's let's post a project per quarter. And we and we tend to, shoot them in batches because, generally, they're in the summer. And, generally, as well, we we wanna wait for the landscape to look good. So they might be a couple of years old by the time we've actually got around to shooting it and then finally appears on Instagram and in magazines and things.
Oliver Leech:So I think that's quite nice. You have this rhythm of, like, not too many new projects because then you look like you're just flat out all the time. And I think that's, you know, we're a small practice, and we want we want to show that we're really personal, that you get a really personal service with us. And we do hold your hand all the way through, and we deliver this amazing project for you. So so you almost don't wanna look too I think there's a danger in looking too busy.
Oliver Leech:So I think just just being careful about posting, a certain number of projects per year and letting them just do the talking. And then, you know, in the offs, you know, maybe there is a break for a few months between projects because you don't have you don't you know, the photos aren't quite ready. Sometimes we do go back to the old projects and just maybe fill a gap a bit. But, it's nice to show the new work and really, like, sort of, you know, create a batch of new images and post them. And and people sort of join join you on the journey.
Oliver Leech:For them, it's like, oh, the new project that they've posted, we've been working on it for 5 years. And, it feels like, you know, we can't wait to, show, you know, show the world and move on to to the to the to the other one that's on the drawing board.
Dave Sharp:So that would be sort of new finished photos or finished projects is kind of exclusively what you're sort of putting out there. No renders currently. Because renders, I mean, we love a good render. You can get away with a good render.
Oliver Leech:No. A good render. Yeah. So we do all the visuals ourselves and we do post a few visuals as well because we're, you know, we're super excited. We can't so you can't even help yourself.
Oliver Leech:You just really wanna show and get a you know, the the likes is like a, some sort of drug. A lot of people that probably don't even know their visuals. I've had a, you know, Instagram people saying, like, is this house for sale? And I'm like, oh, man. It's not even been I haven't even, like, finished designing it yet.
Dave Sharp:I mean, it's a really simple strategy right? I mean like people tend to over complicate Instagram I suppose or social media but for a lot of studios it's probably a risky strategy because you really are quite exposed, aren't you? It's like the work's the work. Here it is. You know?
Dave Sharp:And, like, the kind of not that I'm saying you wouldn't do it in your case or a lot of studios wouldn't do it in their case, but there's a certain as you said earlier, using the term muddying, like, you're you're not muddying anything. You're just going, here is the thing, this, like, pure output of images of projects. We're not building up some, like, big soft narrative around it. We're just going, like, here's the work. And it's like really make or break isn't it?
Dave Sharp:There's no there's no hiding hiding around.
Oliver Leech:Maybe maybe I'll, you know, maybe I'll change my tune one day and think like maybe we should show more personality and share the process behind. Yeah. Office lunch. I mean no. Not for me.
Dave Sharp:Not gonna see anything like a high vis jacket on-site.
Oliver Leech:Well, we I think actually it crops up in my mind a bit when we're, advertising for for new staff. I think that that's when you're like, we could really do is showing, like a bit about the studio and who we are and like we're I I think we're a great place to work. So how do you convey that to someone who they've just seen some images and actually they might project something? You know, you we were talking earlier about the client projecting onto you what they see, or what they could assume that architect is like, but actually it's the same for, like, an employee. So, I think that is a careful balance.
Oliver Leech:We've thought about in the office, like, should we but I think we just did that with store Instagram stories, and then they're gone.
Dave Sharp:More broadly than Instagram, this is also about broader choices about what you put out into the world as a studio. Right? So even though we're talking about Instagram, people don't love hearing about Instagram every episode of the podcast. So I have to I have to kinda keep that in mind. It seems like quite a commitment to this very specific sort of distraction free focus on projects.
Dave Sharp:Right? This this idea of, like, the work doing the talking, which is I think, like, of can be an extremely powerful thing. In its simplicity, it can be really powerful. And I just, like, would be interested in your thinking around why you like the work to just have this, like, distractionless focus of just focus on the work?
Oliver Leech:I think it's about having control. I think, you know, you have a you finish a project and you might actually shoot, a whole day, and you get, like, 40 images. And even then, you're, like, you're curating a set of, like, 15, 10 to go on the website. So you're always just curating and being and it's I think it's about having control. But so you you can set the agenda for what you want people to see.
Oliver Leech:And if you show the process or you you put yourself out there in every aspect, then I think I think you have less control. I mean, the the work, we're obviously very proud of it as well. So if if we if we say this is our work, we love it. This is what we're super proud of. The people that we attract, the clients we want to get also should be, like, seeing this this work and saying this is exactly what I want.
Oliver Leech:I need to call these architects, and I want them to do my you know, design my next house. That that's the aim. Whereas if I think if you showed too much of behind the scenes, potentially risk putting people off. Maybe that's a worry that I have that's actually not even real. I I I don't know.
Dave Sharp:I'm just interested, like even bringing the question up about it. I'm always just interested in sort of exploring it as an idea because I think people have this very, like, black and white take on whether or not architecture should be that way or not be that way. Like, everyone's got opinions on it. High end brands, like luxury brands, whatever, high quality brands are very controlled. You use the word control and immediately made me think of, like, brands like that are super controlled in how you experience their product or their brand.
Dave Sharp:Like, it's part of how you ensure something remains perceived as very high quality. Louis Vuitton does not just want, like, any random shit going on in their in their stores and people doing whatever they want with the brand and the product and, like, every store is different, and it's just this kind of chaos. Like, it's all about this control. And I think you think about artists. You think about, like, a filmmaker.
Dave Sharp:I don't know. Like, Tarantino or Scorsese or something. They're not just gonna, like, take little behind the scenes clips of, like, lunch on set and put it up on Instagram so we can see, like, random little teasers of the movie. Like, it's controlled how that is experienced. Right?
Dave Sharp:Like, I don't know if there's a
Oliver Leech:Actually, yeah. So I was I was, I was reading about Christopher Nolan, the director, and he doesn't do any interviews. He does rarely any interviews because he says if too much of his personality is given away, then it distracts from the films, and the films are what he wants to do and the films are what he wants to sell, to people and show people. So I think that's sort of an interesting topic really is, you know, who who we compare ourselves to. And it's I think where we wanna be is like a luxury.
Oliver Leech:It's a it is a luxury brand. It's like.
Dave Sharp:Well, yours is, like, choicefully. That's the direction that you're going through choice. Not every practice necessarily wants to go in that direction. So it's but to each their own. Right?
Dave Sharp:Like, you've that's kind of the direction you you've kind of positioned in the studio.
Oliver Leech:You know, there's there's webs there's a lot of websites, Susan. We have fun, dynamic, young studio, which, you know yeah. We and we'll we'll we'll take on any project. We work with any budget, and we'll we'll always deliver. Yeah.
Oliver Leech:We so, I mean, that's all good. That's there's nothing bad about that, but it's not where we have sort of positioned ourself. We don't, you know, we're not it might be fun in our private lives, but we don't see it being this, like, fun thing.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. I'm scrolling now. Yeah.
Oliver Leech:Of like We we take our job super seriously. And when it comes to designing, we're just like passionate and it is actually very fun. But we're not saying that, you know, we're gonna have fun with your project. And the the type of clients who might want, a fun, interesting, wacky approach might, well, firstly, they'll choose another architect, but also and that's fine. But that they're probably maybe younger.
Oliver Leech:I get the impression they may be slightly younger. I don't know if that's true. I don't wanna stereotype it. Like, if we generalized and said, which or work it the other way and said, like, which are the clients? Which clients are our perfect clients?
Oliver Leech:I'd I'd tend to say they were generally older. They might have grown up kids. They might be it's not their first home. This is probably might not even be their first project. I mean, ideally, it wouldn't be their first project because working with a client who's using Arctic before is slightly easier.
Oliver Leech:And, a a person, you know, a client who's in their early thirties and it's their first home isn't going to be building, a beautiful house on the on the hills of Umbria in Italy. You know, we we started we started with our, you know, perfect project, and that sort of tells us who our perfect client is. And then and then you aim for them, then you change your tone, and you change your language to try and match that. I think, yeah, it's quite
Dave Sharp:But it's a good way to think about it, like, start with the project, imagine the person, and then kind of sort of work backwards from that. Because there's lots of different ways you can think about your kind of, like, ideal clients and target clients, but that's a cool way to do it.
Oliver Leech:It helps you when you when you're thinking about communications and, like, we got this project. There's some lovely photos. Like, which magazines are we gonna be in? And we have this discussion. We use an external communications consultant, and they you know, we have we have this discussion often of, like, you know, where where was our target audience going to be?
Oliver Leech:Like, what's a what magazine? Like, who who's gonna read the, Grand Designs versus who's gonna read Feet? So, like, we know where we're trying to get to. Obviously, it tends to be hard to get into those sort of publications, but, yeah, starting with a client helps make all those sort of follow on decisions about pretty much everything we do that's sort of external.
Dave Sharp:Do you have, like, in addition to that sort of client in mind, do you have any other, like, segments or other types of personas that you envision?
Oliver Leech:If we're being aspirational, it's not talking about, like, we don't, you know, we do not work for under thirties. That's just but, it's like saying this is this is a make believe client who probably has the most likely chance of having our perfect project.
Dave Sharp:We talk about photography because I think it's a topic we love to talk about, particularly when it comes to really beautifully photographed residential stuff. I feel like it always becomes like a third of the podcast. What's your photography strategy? Unpack it for me. How do you approach your photography?
Dave Sharp:What's your aesthetic preference? Do you mix up photographers? Do you stick to 1?
Oliver Leech:It's been a learning curve, actually. So we've always felt that, you know, the best way to create the portfolio, and it's it's always through the photography. So we've always valued having getting really good photographs of the house to the point where we've, like, reshot, some projects because we think it wasn't quite right, and it didn't quite give the right sense of the project and could have been too stark or to to to something. So we we we we get another photographer in. So we have our favorites.
Oliver Leech:In my mind, I was always like, we would have 1 photographer.
Dave Sharp:We'd grow up together.
Oliver Leech:Yeah. We grow up together and they do all our jobs
Dave Sharp:and we do a book one day.
Oliver Leech:Yeah. And I don't think, you know, in reality, there's sometimes different jobs require different set of services and, you know, there's some more productive photographers than others, and and some other great photographers are busy more than others. So you have to sort of be careful. And, also, you you might you might you know, not all projects are the same as well. So in terms of there's some projects that, like, this is this is where we wanna go in the future.
Oliver Leech:So this we're gonna really market this to death. And there's some projects that you're thinking this is great, but it might in 5 years, it might drop away a bit. So that's you know, that doesn't need so much attention. So, yeah, we we we do most of our own styling. I think we've used a stylist once and that she was great.
Oliver Leech:But I think, generally, most of our clients have quite good taste. So they have lovely furniture and artwork and stuff, and that's great. And I think if it's overly curated, it can sometimes lack something. I don't know what it is, but, like, some sort of sense of character, uniqueness, personality, that comes through when you have, like, some wacky antique furniture in the corner of a really beautiful, like, minimalist room. That can look great.
Oliver Leech:So we're quite relaxed about oh, I yeah. Maybe not relaxed is the right word, but we haven't we haven't started to death. And I think we've been generally on the side of keeping a lot of the clients' possessions in the shot, but it does depend on the photographer. So, you have to be a bit careful about that. So, although you do get the projects, of course, where they haven't even moved in yet and you have to, you have to do it yourself.
Oliver Leech:So I like I don't think anyone's ever noticed, but in the butterfly house, the bed's made of cardboard boxes. So,
Dave Sharp:what? Yeah. You just put a blanket and a pillow on top of some cardboard box?
Oliver Leech:Absolutely. Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah. We're literally spend spend the morning making cardboard boxes and then That's a bed.
Oliver Leech:It's a bed for the day.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. Because, like, getting into this conversation often about do we fill these projects with life and, you know, have someone at the kitchen whipping up, something and, you know, kids running around, and do we turn it into, like, a full scene of family life and there's stuff everywhere? And, you know, like, is it all about the kind of the way the client lives in it, or do we sort of pull it back a bit, take stuff out, pare back things somewhat, and kind of let the architecture do a bit more of the talking.
Oliver Leech:Is it is it a lifestyle shoot, or is it an architecture shoot? And, like, I still don't know if I can answer that one because I think it chain I think I still I change my opinion, like, every week. And I think what I'm starting to realize is maybe it's just like a personal like, just go with your gut. And, like, the more I just, like, follow my gut instincts on a on a shoot and just say, like like, you know, maybe we put it back and have left lifestyle. It generally suits the project and it and and between you and the photographer, normally, we get it right.
Oliver Leech:And to to be honest, like, we've had magazines come back and say, oh, there's not enough, you know, there's not enough throw cushions on the bed. It's like, well, is the I think I I wouldn't change that. I just like, sorry. We're not sorry. The project's not right for you.
Oliver Leech:Like, can't please everyone. And I think, yeah, if if you produce a beautiful set of photographs that you're proud of and that, like, fit with your vision as an architect, that's probably more important than getting in a magazine that will be thrown in the bin.
Dave Sharp:So So given that publications can be quite fickle, and we know that they kind of each have their own sort of style and creative direction around imagery and all of that sort of thing. Are you sort of thinking at all about publications before and during the shoot when you're thinking about the decision making around that stuff? Or is it just like photos first, project first?
Oliver Leech:So it's important to have a narrative of the of the house. So not going in and going, that's a beautiful room and that's a beautiful room, and then we'll just leave the rest of the house. I think if you're thinking about getting into magazines, you sort of have to tell the story of the whole thing because it generally their client led pieces about the journey they went on. So if you can't sell that whole journey in the whole house, then you you can miss out on publications. But that, you know, if if if you have a set of 40 photographs, you can have the sort of the the lesser rooms that won't go on the website, but they're great for the magazines and you can mix and match.
Oliver Leech:And I think it's about having some flexibility within those photographs that they do suit a few different things. But if you try and please everyone, you're probably just like
Dave Sharp:That hasn't really been brought up too much previously on the podcast. That idea of the magazines are the publications are interested in the the biggest story, the narrative, the client driven thing. Like, that's definitely true. Absolutely agree with you there. Like, the client is often, like, the kind of the hero of the story.
Dave Sharp:Can you just go a bit more detail there? Like, how does that relate to, like, the choice of, you know, as you were saying, just not picking, like, a room in another room, which I think sometimes, like, photography, right, it's become about a couple of really cool moments in a building. It hasn't really, like, when I've had old school sort of photographers like John Gollings on the Australian series of the podcast, he just, like, bemoans that architecture photography has gone from this really, like, documentation of a work of architecture to just 1 or 2 cool views through a door frame into, like, a space. And, like, that he's he feels like that's this really, like, partial kind of, like, when it's not really about documenting architecture, it's just creating a cool photo and like whatever he may or may not be right about that. But is that kind of what you're getting at a little bit?
Dave Sharp:It's talk me through the client connection there in terms of like documenting the whole project.
Oliver Leech:Well, I think I think you you do need to tell the story of the whole house. If you're if to have a successful shoot that you can use in as much, as much publications as possible, which is what you I mean, it's one of the outcomes of the photoshoot. It's not the complete outcome. It's not the only goal, but it's one of the goals is to try and show your work off to as many people as possible. So part of that is, like, pandering a little bit.
Oliver Leech:Like, I'm I I don't you don't wanna pander too much the magazines. Having having clients in the photos, I think that's, like, quite key. Yeah. So, like, there's at least one photo that shows the clients. And we try and do that on all our shoots now.
Oliver Leech:It's like even if the photographer is, like, really awkward about it and saying, I really, really don't really don't like people. And you're like, please, please, just one just one click, and then we're done.
Dave Sharp:Yeah.
Oliver Leech:And and that actually really helps. And yeah. And the other part is the whole house. So just making sure you connect all the rooms together, and it's not just it's not just a little detail. It's actually showing, the full room sometimes so that the the reader of the magazine, which is, you know, what the editors are thinking about, can really put together the full pieces of the project.
Oliver Leech:I mean, I do think that there is that sort of, like, that, that one shot, the hero shot that's always as important as well. And that maybe that's, like, for the websites and for the Instagram and all these other things that you have and the awards that's super important. But for the journey and the story, I think you need you need other photographs. So, you do need flexibility. You need basically a lot quite a few shots.
Dave Sharp:It's interesting to discuss the photos you need, you know, and kind of remembering that, like, you do need that big landscape hero shot for the website, but you also need a lot of portraits for Instagram. You know, like, portraits tend to really perform. Like, you can't have a super skinny little landscape do well on Instagram. It's just that it isn't a thing. It's a it's not a thing anymore.
Dave Sharp:You need so you need certain types of images that I think you write about the clients that are right about introducing probably a little bit more client stuff than you would probably instinctively kind of do as the architect. And And that's a big conversation in the industry. It's like this idea of like, really like, you know, empty, cold, stark architecture. It's, like, not about real people in real life. And, like, it's this big argument that everyone gets hated about out there on LinkedIn and Instagram, I guess.
Dave Sharp:And it's like, you know, there's there's a lot of people that are like, oh, that's what's wrong with architecture. You know? I disagree with them sometimes.
Oliver Leech:Some architects will have very sort of restrained photos, and that's fine because that's their that's their brand. If it's if you're doing it, but it's actually not your brand, then that's just like a mistake, I guess. And, if you fill it with too much stuff, then it can actually take away from the the sort of point of the images, which is to celebrate the architecture. And but it it is this sort of it's a lifestyle and it's a architecture shoot, so you have to sort of incorporate both, I think. And that's a careful balance.
Oliver Leech:And that's that I I guess that's where stylists help, but, we've tended to yeah. The photographers also really, really help on on the day.
Dave Sharp:So we're talking about styling. We did catch up recently and you were telling me this amazing thing about where you've got stuff from in situations where you've needed to occupy your empty places with furniture, with objects. It's always a challenging issue because I think interior designers have an easy time because they've got these relationships with these suppliers and these like retailers sell beautiful furniture. And you can just call them up and be like, could you loan us some shit? And they do.
Dave Sharp:But, like, it's tough as an architect because they go, you know, you don't specify our sofas. We don't care about you. It's hard. How do you do it?
Oliver Leech:Well, it's tough. I mean, the so the projects where you don't have that beautiful set of furniture with the client's own, which is actually quite a lot of projects. Quite common. Yeah. So you have to well, you you start to build up your own little library of things and nice, objects that you can put in the space, but you start to see them in every shoot.
Oliver Leech:You have to be a bit careful. But otherwise, there's this great place which I was telling you about. It's a it's I think it's designed for TV and film, and you can rent props. So it's this massive warehouse in North London, and you go there and there are 1,000 and 1,000 of things to to pick. You can get, like, books.
Oliver Leech:You can get sort of weird jars. You can get furniture. You can get lighting. You can get anything. And you just rent it for for a week.
Oliver Leech:I think you pay like a percentage of the value of the of the object and you fill up your van and off you go. I mean, it's it's it works out expensive, but but that can turn like a 7 out of 10 shoot into a 10 out of 10 shoot. So for sometimes, it's, like, 100% worth the investment. And then the photographer takes it all out again. So Yeah.
Dave Sharp:I've never heard of anyone doing this before, but now it's probably gonna be like flooded with like,
Oliver Leech:yeah, it's like a fun day out as well. You get to like just put the, you basically have a shopping trolley and you just you just put
Dave Sharp:it around
Oliver Leech:the shopping trolley and check out. That's pretty cool. It's awesome. There is also you have to you have to find the nice stuff and Yeah. They have really beautiful furniture so yeah that's a really great that's a really great option and, it's a fun day out.
Dave Sharp:That's really cool. Given that you can choose anything from any era and you're you're not dealing with, like, you know, you're putting in your own things into an empty space potentially, or maybe the client does have stuff, but they're going, oh, this is my stuff I wanna replace. I'm just building a little bit more budget. It's the last thing I need to do, so don't love the current, you know, purple leather sofa. It's gonna go.
Dave Sharp:Let's get rid of it. You can kinda do anything at that point. What are you doing? Are you just sort of walking around going, like, no. You need a What do I like?
Dave Sharp:What what sort of suits the compliments you?
Oliver Leech:We'd probably run through we'd run through probably the shot, a sense of a shot list. I mean, photographers don't love shot list. So you probably do the do a a quick list with the photographer and say, you know, maybe it's, you're taking some shots on your iPhone and just said, like, this is the space. Like, what do we think we need? Like, I think we need a chair in that location.
Oliver Leech:And then you find a nice chair. But you don't need loads of stuff. So, like, unless it's just completely empty. We have had a project where it's just there was absolutely nothing, and we had to be very creative with, like, dining table because they're like, you can't I mean, how big fan you can't really get a whole dining table. So we had to use a plank of wood and make it look
Dave Sharp:but it's another cardboard box job.
Oliver Leech:Yeah. It was very, yeah. You have to get creative, but you don't need loads of stuff. And, actually, all the little things you might have at home and the photographer might have something that they can bring in. And, I mean, the the Klans band have something you can use.
Oliver Leech:So, I think, actually, the landscaping is almost more important than, like, some of the interiors because you can it's easier to fill the interiors than it is sometimes. Like, you can't lay a lawn.
Dave Sharp:Yeah.
Oliver Leech:I mean, that would be outrageous. So, you know, early on in when when we were, like, desperate we didn't have a portfolio, so we're desperate for content for the website. We didn't we couldn't afford to wait, like, 2 years for them to finish the landscaping. So we just had to make do basically with with the state it was. Although one one time I did go down to Homebase, which is a big sort of DIY store, and I bought like 30, 40 plants.
Oliver Leech:Fill filled out some of the filled out some of the borders for the shoot, and then I took them back and returned them. But, yeah, I think the landscaping now, because we have the luxury of a little bit more time and we're we we have some projects on the website already, then we can wait. So that that's I think that's the luxury of having that extra time to use.
Dave Sharp:What about film? Is that something that you're also kinda considering at the moment? Like, what are your thoughts on that area? Is that something you've done previously? Like, I'm trying to remember.
Dave Sharp:Have I seen any
Oliver Leech:We started to think about it, basically. We've done a few reels, and actually we talked about like never showing a process. We did some like on-site like reels of
Dave Sharp:walking through the place.
Oliver Leech:Yeah. Walk through and that's yeah, that's, I
Dave Sharp:think were you talking, were you on camera or were you behind?
Oliver Leech:No, that's the next step. That's the if I don't know, but then people see me. So that's that gives away that hope. Like Yeah.
Dave Sharp:Yeah. Yeah.
Oliver Leech:Just do it.
Dave Sharp:Thanks. Maybe
Oliver Leech:maybe one day. But I think it's something that we're looking at quite seriously for the next few years is to, like, really move more heavily into film. I think that's going to be, with our first client, who you know, we always ask them, like, how did you find us? Like, where did you see our name? How like, was it was it another friend or and they said, like, YouTube.
Oliver Leech:They would they just looked up. And, actually, they we weren't on YouTube, so I don't know how that happened. But but they said they've they when they were looking for architects, they were, like, looking at YouTube. And I just think that's, like, the most bizarre thing I'd ever heard. But maybe that's, you know, we know you basically wanna be seen on every sort of platform and hope that, like, your name crops up or your they love your image.
Oliver Leech:And why not have some videos of cool walkthroughs and, like, why not have videos?
Dave Sharp:I think videos, like, for me I sort of think of them less as like a way that you attract new eyeballs on YouTube but more of a sort of images are very emotionally resonating. They really struck a chord with people, don't they? They come to your website, they look at your work or they look at your Instagram. They see particular images that just inspire them, and they feel some sort of a connection with I think, like, video is just like that, but even more effective.
Oliver Leech:Yeah. It's next level, isn't
Dave Sharp:it? It's next level. It's like music and movement and feeling a space, like, really hearing a message, you know, it's got mood, it's got it's got all of that. So I feel like if you're trying to kind of convey that, then, you know, film is like the absolute superior way
Oliver Leech:to do it. 100%. So I think that's very much on our mind for, like, the next few years is, you know, picking our favorite projects, like our big statement pieces and saying this project is gonna be our main project for, like, the next 5 years. Let's get some really amazing films done of it and, you know, show people. I mean, they're not going to these it's not all about future clients, but future clients are not going to be able to see.
Oliver Leech:They'll they'll never get a chance, really, unless you invite them down to to be in, like, be in that house and also different times of day. Like, when you go and visit a house, it's probably in the daytime. But actually, we're very proud of, you know, how our buildings, you know, are lit and how they look in a dusk and all these things so that you can really convey really, I think, successfully with film that you can't really do with images. So, but maybe that's when you start to talk about the process as well. And I think film's a way of, like, showing a little bit of the process within
Dave Sharp:In Australia, we've got the local project, which they yeah. Their YouTube channel is, you know, does really well, has in the past done really, really good work with film and sort of set a bit of a, like, in our market, a bit of a standard around that. And I had a previous episode in the Australian series where I spoke to the filmmakers that did a lot of the or the majority of the earlier, like, local project films. And they were talking about how unlike photography, they were intentionally sort of looking for those days where it wasn't just pleasant, nice, normal weather or normal conditions. Like, they found that even, like, on a day where there was a storm could make for an incredibly interesting video.
Dave Sharp:Like, getting seasonality through a house, like, film does that sort of experience in a way that photography doesn't either.
Oliver Leech:I've seen some really beautiful shoots from from some other architects, and they're like, yeah, you have the rain dripping into the pond, and it's absolutely stunning. And and it's fine. That's that's that's cool. Like, to mix it up. But if you had them all like this gray sky, I'm not sure.
Oliver Leech:We try and avoid like a really sunny day as well. So, you just want that, like, lovely overcast. You get really soft light. And I mean, that's all part of the part of the branding. Like, what do you what what are you trying to convey?
Oliver Leech:Like, sense of calm or sense of, like, excitement?
Dave Sharp:We've had a very, I think, practical kind of conversation, a very marketing oriented conversation today, which is lovely. We don't always do that on the podcast. Any, like, final conclosures or thoughts or topics we didn't maybe get to that you think would be interesting to add?
Oliver Leech:I think I think as I get a bit more experience, I think a lot of the you know, there's a lot of juggling with our different ideas as you're expanding and, like trying to set your mark in the world of architecture and a lot of things you can be doing, can't be doing. And generally, I just think if I was to go back and, do it all again, I just try and like be I try and just be myself a bit and not be too too worried about, like, the perception. I I mean, it's probably goes against everything we just talked about.
Dave Sharp:This whole podcast has been about how to create this, like, impeccable perception. So But
Oliver Leech:I think your perception is always actually eventually your vision for it. So it is personal, if that makes sense. So it's like, don't try and live don't try and create someone else's vision. And I think you can always look over your shoulder and see all the other architects doing great work, and you'd be like, oh, that's amazing. Should we do it like that?
Oliver Leech:We should be doing it like this. And that's always playing in your mind. But eventually, it's actually just the best way is, like, what you wanna do. So, I'm getting there. That that's like it's always it's always a bit trial and error there, isn't it?
Oliver Leech:I mean, we're as a as a sort of a young practice, I think, actually, even the more mature practices, like, they're still trying different things and, like, perfecting the the way they, do things and the way they're seen to to be doing things. So, like, I just think the the more personal I can become, the easier. You're not fighting against anything. You're just like, it's not about less control. It's actually more control.
Oliver Leech:It's just actually but it but but it's something that's very personal to you rather than like like another architects.
Dave Sharp:I think like inevitably we, in how we decide on how our images should be or how our branding should be, all these sorts of things, like it's often gonna be inspired by references and precedent, you know, like, the things that we like, things that we're interested in, like architects or other people that we see and we think, oh, they're really cool. I kinda wanna be like them. Like, there's always gonna be that. Right? I mean, would you say that's true, like, in terms of defining your personal taste through things that you see and experience and
Oliver Leech:A lot of it, but I think I get also, you know, there's an inspiration from, all sorts of places.
Dave Sharp:I explore a broader range of my own interests. Like, maybe it's like different countries. Maybe it's like, you know, just like different industry, different whatever, like, get inspiration from different places potentially. Then then you end up having, like, maybe a more personal kind of take on things that's a little not the same as what everyone else like, whatever the cool studio of the moment is, you're not just any No.
Oliver Leech:It should be highly curated and bespoke and controlled, but it also should be like actually yours rather than someone else's version of that. So I think that's sort of the point I think is like, it can be you're not being mysterious and not showing personality doesn't mean it can't be a super personal brand. It's just, you're not, you know, you're you're showing in a different way through the images, through the branding, through the the way you do everything, really.
Dave Sharp:The key part that came up for me was when you were talking about taking that time to sort of explore your own thoughts in terms of ideal projects, your vision of 10 years, like what you're about, what you're not about, you know, when I start working with practices to work on their marketing strategy, that's obviously, you know, that's such a huge part of the process. It's just, like, it's assumed that they know what type of practice they are, like, day to day, they they kind of feel like they do, but you go into the process and you sort of realize they're not really sure. Like, they haven't actually sat down and had this conversation and sort of thought about, like, who are we as a practice and, you know, what are we about? And you actually need to take the time to think about that stuff before you start going out and acting on it, you know?
Oliver Leech:Yeah. 100%. Yeah. And whether it's even like it might be there in in the back of your mind, I guess, always. But I actually putting it on paper, it's like a big it's a big moment because then you can be like, you can share it with other people then.
Oliver Leech:And and whenever you have a discussion with a, you consultant that might be helping you on a bit of, you know, the website or a bit of, copy for, you know, press releases and everything like that, You can share that pretty.
Dave Sharp:You've got a sense of the direction that you're trying to go. You know,
Oliver Leech:you're not you're not changing it as per the conversation, you know, for every conversation you have. So, I think that's super important.
Dave Sharp:Ollie, thank you so much for coming on the podcast.
Oliver Leech:No worries. Thanks for having me, Dave.
Dave Sharp:That was my conversation with Oliver Leach of Oliver Leach Architects. If you'd like to learn more about their studio, you can visit oliverleach.com or follow them on Instagram at oliverleach architects. OfficeTalk is hosted by Office Dave Sharp, a strategic marketing and brand management practice for architecture. We work collaboratively with clients across the globe. So to learn more about our process and book a consultation, simply visit officedavesharp.com.
Dave Sharp:Today's episode of Office Talk was edited and engineered by Anthony Richardson of Simple Dwellings Studio. That's all for this episode. Thank you so much. I'll see you next time.
